Why why why

Why why why

This is a discussion on Why why why within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hello all i want to introduce myself. some of you may know me from the same name in MANY other forums. now that thats out ...

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    New Member Array JoeGlockStar's Avatar
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    Why why why

    Hello all i want to introduce myself. some of you may know me from the same name in MANY other forums. now that thats out of the way, i live in minneapolis, i work at the biggest gunshop/range in the area, and i open carry, not just at work but EVERYWHERE. but the police here absolutely hate it. i got followed home from blockbuster just last night while i was there with my 7 month old son, which btw we are there daily and know the management and all employees on first name basis. i was there about an hour just BSing with the manager and many customers came in and out while i was standing up at register talking. they (BB employees) haVE zero problem with me carrying. so on my 1 mile drive home i notice a LEO on my tail and he followed me into my apt complex. i parked and noticed him parking so i set my hands out the window and informed him i was currently legally armed.as he came up he said hey u dont have to put your hands out i know who u are steering wheel is fine. he then proceeded to tell me how he knew it was my right bla bla bla and i should just "simply" cover it up so customers of blockbuster dont call cops and that my future in law enforcement will be ruined when an employer does my checks and sees all the calls made by other citizens (such as the one that brought him to me this night ) and sees that im a wierdo that walks around displaying a gun and decides not to hire me. bla bla bla reason the encounter went so "well" is because they know me and my car and home from other times that theyve had to check out MWAG calls and these guys hate me for it. im a class A citizen just a regular hardworking family man. so it really boggles my mind how ANY of the stories i read with good LEO encounters happen. i mean i just cant seem to find a single cop that is ok with me OCing. its getting annoying. i mean they dont even hit the lights or sirens when they see me they just follow me home. i mean hell, they even CALL me on my personal CELL PHONE! and say hey man what did we talk about carrying that gun in the open like that. any advice would be lovely, i ve called the chief and complained he said basically go pound salt and cover your gun. ive written down all the millions of times they waste my time. what i dont need is to hear that "its just the risk you take open carrying" ive heard it, im not new to this at all i dont mean to sound rude but leave that one out if you can please. i need REAL advice on how to handle the harrasment. one point i didnt make clear is that for the most part about 80 percent of the LEOS that hit me are nice about it. only a few get mean and ignorant.thanks for the help im looking forward to the responses.


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeGlockStar View Post
    Hello all i want to introduce myself. some of you may know me from the same name in MANY other forums. now that thats out of the way, i live in minneapolis, i work at the biggest gunshop/range in the area, and i open carry, not just at work but EVERYWHERE. but the police here absolutely hate it. i got followed home from blockbuster just last night while i was there with my 7 month old son, which btw we are there daily and know the management and all employees on first name basis. i was there about an hour just BSing with the manager and many customers came in and out while i was standing up at register talking. they (BB employees) haVE zero problem with me carrying. so on my 1 mile drive home i notice a LEO on my tail and he followed me into my apt complex. i parked and noticed him parking so i set my hands out the window and informed him i was currently legally armed.as he came up he said hey u dont have to put your hands out i know who u are steering wheel is fine. he then proceeded to tell me how he knew it was my right bla bla bla and i should just "simply" cover it up so customers of blockbuster dont call cops and that my future in law enforcement will be ruined when an employer does my checks and sees all the calls made by other citizens (such as the one that brought him to me this night ) and sees that im a wierdo that walks around displaying a gun and decides not to hire me. bla bla bla reason the encounter went so "well" is because they know me and my car and home from other times that theyve had to check out MWAG calls and these guys hate me for it. im a class A citizen just a regular hardworking family man. so it really boggles my mind how ANY of the stories i read with good LEO encounters happen. i mean i just cant seem to find a single cop that is ok with me OCing. its getting annoying. i mean they dont even hit the lights or sirens when they see me they just follow me home. i mean hell, they even CALL me on my personal CELL PHONE! and say hey man what did we talk about carrying that gun in the open like that. any advice would be lovely, i ve called the chief and complained he said basically go pound salt and cover your gun. ive written down all the millions of times they waste my time. what i dont need is to hear that "its just the risk you take open carrying" ive heard it, im not new to this at all i dont mean to sound rude but leave that one out if you can please. i need REAL advice on how to handle the harrasment. one point i didnt make clear is that for the most part about 80 percent of the LEOS that hit me are nice about it. only a few get mean and ignorant.thanks for the help im looking forward to the responses.
    I will assume that everything you say is Factual and that you are not habitually doing anything else in public that would attract the attention
    of a passerby.

    You are being harrased and your civil rights are being violated.

    Get a Lawyer who specializes in civil rights issues - sue the chief and individual officers - make sure your lawyer can recover
    court costs AND a small damage award.

    If it starts to cost the govt. real money and bad publicity they will soon leave you alone.



    .
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    know your rights!
    http://www.handgunlaw.us

    "If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
    {Bernhard Goetz}

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    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    One word: paragraphs.

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    Member Array Macantic's Avatar
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    So why don't you take their advice and conceal it? If you think about it,you are at a disadvantage when you open carry,and not just from getting harrased from the cops but scaring the anti-gunners.If your at the counter somewhere paying for something and your hands aren't near your gun and someone behind you gets the bright idea to rob the place and either grabs your gun or he sees yours and figures he better take you out first.If you conceal it you have the element of surprise on your side. I hope this helps and makes sense to you,but it's your gun and your life so do what you want. Be safe and take care.
    Retired (traveling and loving it!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKsrule View Post
    I will assume that everything you say is Factual and that you are not habitually doing anything else in public that would attract the attention
    of a passerby.

    You are being harrased and your civil rights are being violated.

    Get a Lawyer who specializes in civil rights issues - sue the chief and individual officers - make sure your lawyer can recover
    court costs AND a small damage award.

    If it starts to cost the govt. real money and bad publicity they will soon leave you alone.



    .
    SO just one question... What basis would you use for your lawsuits?
    jwhite75, TN_Mike and RMS like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macantic View Post
    So why don't you take their advice and conceal it? If you think about it,you are at a disadvantage when you open carry,and not just from getting harrased from the cops but scaring the anti-gunners.If your at the counter somewhere paying for something and your hands aren't near your gun and someone behind you gets the bright idea to rob the place and either grabs your gun or he sees yours and figures he better take you out first.If you conceal it you have the element of surprise on your side. I hope this helps and makes sense to you,but it's your gun and your life so do what you want. Be safe and take care.
    While that sounds good, I've yet to have anyone show me documented proof of it happening. Yes I know there was the 1 story of the OC'er who was robbed at gunpoint and his gun taken, but other than that I know of no others. I do know of several where someone OC'ing worked as a deterrent to a robbery.
    TN_Mike and NoNameMan like this.
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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Why why why
    Please spare us. You know "why why why". You certainly have the right to carry any way you choose that is in compliance with the laws of the area but you surely know to expect that you will draw some attention in a city like Minneapolis. Right or wrong that is just the fact of the matter. You have made your choice to OC now deal with the consequences in a manner that reflects well on your cause. Sorry friend. Can't find much sympathy for you.
    One word: paragraphs.
    Proper punctuation and appropriate capitalization would help as well.

  8. #8
    Member Array loboleather's Avatar
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    The officers who have been courteous and polite in their contacts with you deserve your courtesy and respect in return. They are simply responding to a dispatched call to investigate the circumstances (MWAG complaint, etc).

    An officer who behaves rudely should be reported to his supervisors for disciplinary action. An officer that detains you without probable cause (specific knowledge of facts that would cause a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed) for an unreasonable amount of time (such as administering a lecture or demanding that you alter your otherwise lawful behavior to conform with his/her wishes) is, arguably, violating your rights by unlawfully detaining you. The degree of such violations would be subject to interpretations based upon the length and conditions of the detainment. A few minutes while waiting for a reply to a wants/warrants inquiry, serial number check of your weapon, etc, would probably be viewed as reasonable in many circumstances. Proning you out on the ground at gunpoint for a half-hour, threatening you with injury or death, any sort of rough handling, etc, might be interpreted as something else entirely.

    Personally, I would love to hear that all complaint clerks, dispatchers, etc, would ask the MWAG caller a few questions prior to dispatching officers to investigate, such as "What is the man doing?", "Is the man brandishing the weapon or behaving in a threatening manner?", perhaps even "Are you aware that any citizen has the right to keep and bear arms in this state?" or similar inquiries. This would eliminate the need to respond to many such calls and avoid unnecessary confrontations.

    Unfortunately, we live in a society in which many folks are not accustomed to seeing armed civilians in public, have never completed a high school civics class that focused on the Constitution of the United States or of their state of residence, have no clue what the law actually prohibits, and are capable of overreacting to anything out of the ordinary. There are also quite a few folks that make complaints because of their own lack of mental stability, capabilities of logical or rational thought, etc.

    Many police departments receive enormous volumes of calls, requiring complaint clerks and dispatchers to work rapidly and somewhat automatically according to a prescribed routine. When a complaint comes in it is recorded and sent to a dispatcher to assign the next available unit to respond and investigate.

    Patrol officers can frequently be overwhelmed with service demands, constantly running to the next call, frequently missing meals and breaks, and many times spending hours after their assigned shifts completing required reports. Undoubtedly there are some officers who become frustrated when responding to what might be considered unnecessary calls. Whether the call is unnecessary because Joe Citizen isn't aware that openly carrying a holstered handgun is not unlawful, or because John Q. Public is running around with a holstered handgun on his hip and making good old Joe vapor-lock and call the cops, the result is the same. Cops have had valuable time taken away from other requirements to investigate an unnecessary complaint, and some will vent their frustration on the person at hand (namely you, the guy with the gun on his hip that started the ball rolling).

    24 years as a cop, including 6-1/2 years as a police chief, and I've experienced this many times. Human nature isn't going to change, no matter what. Public attitudes, including responses to armed civilians, aren't likely to change until and unless there is a massive effort to educate folks on the constitution and laws (which is highly unlikely, given the state of our educational institutions that can't seem to provide high school graduates with any real abilities in even reading, writing, or simple math, much less any meaningful education in civics).

    I carry openly on occasion. When I do so I make a point of being neatly dressed and go about my business with a smile on my face and a kind word to everyone that I meet. That doesn't stop the occasional citizen from reporting that there is a white male, 60's, 5-11, 185, gray hair, moustache, pumping gas into his beige Ford F150 at the Kwik Stop on Highway 50, and wearing a big old .45 on his hip. It also doesn't prevent the occasional law enforcement contact, which sometimes includes a little lecture from a cop about upsetting the public by running around openly armed. I just listen politely and smile, then go about my business. On the one occasion when 3 officers, including a supervisor, responded to such a situation and the supervisor went a little over the top in his critique of my behavior, I pointed out that our state constitution clearly states that the citizen's right to keep and bear arms in defense of himself, his property, and his state "shall not be questioned", then pointed out that the nice supervisor had just violated the Constitution of the State of Colorado. I nicely suggested that either he could stop violating my constitutional rights or I would do my best to own his home and retirement fund. That pretty much ended the discussion. Of course, my retirement badge and ID probably put me in a little different category than some others might have occupied under the same circumstances, so such comments may not be advisable for everyone or under all circumstances.

    Even here in Colorado, with 4.5 million people and about 10 million guns, very clear laws permitting open carry in most locations, and a constitutional guarantee even stronger than the federal 2nd Amendment, I usually recommend discretion when armed (keep it out of sight) and preventing unnecessary complaints with wasted time for our law enforcement officers.

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    This is gonna be a good one.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    This is gonna be a good one.
    Yup. The thing is we've already watched this movie so many times before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeGlockStar View Post
    Hello all i want to introduce myself. some of you may know me from the same name in MANY other forums. now that thats out of the way, i live in minneapolis, i work at the biggest gunshop/range in the area, and i open carry, not just at work but EVERYWHERE. but the police here absolutely hate it. i got followed home from blockbuster just last night while i was there with my 7 month old son, which btw we are there daily and know the management and all employees on first name basis. i was there about an hour just BSing with the manager and many customers came in and out while i was standing up at register talking. they (BB employees) haVE zero problem with me carrying. so on my 1 mile drive home i notice a LEO on my tail and he followed me into my apt complex. i parked and noticed him parking so i set my hands out the window and informed him i was currently legally armed.as he came up he said hey u dont have to put your hands out i know who u are steering wheel is fine. he then proceeded to tell me how he knew it was my right bla bla bla and i should just "simply" cover it up so customers of blockbuster dont call cops and that my future in law enforcement will be ruined when an employer does my checks and sees all the calls made by other citizens (such as the one that brought him to me this night ) and sees that im a wierdo that walks around displaying a gun and decides not to hire me. bla bla bla reason the encounter went so "well" is because they know me and my car and home from other times that theyve had to check out MWAG calls and these guys hate me for it. im a class A citizen just a regular hardworking family man. so it really boggles my mind how ANY of the stories i read with good LEO encounters happen. i mean i just cant seem to find a single cop that is ok with me OCing. its getting annoying. i mean they dont even hit the lights or sirens when they see me they just follow me home. i mean hell, they even CALL me on my personal CELL PHONE! and say hey man what did we talk about carrying that gun in the open like that. any advice would be lovely, i ve called the chief and complained he said basically go pound salt and cover your gun. ive written down all the millions of times they waste my time. what i dont need is to hear that "its just the risk you take open carrying" ive heard it, im not new to this at all i dont mean to sound rude but leave that one out if you can please. i need REAL advice on how to handle the harrasment. one point i didnt make clear is that for the most part about 80 percent of the LEOS that hit me are nice about it. only a few get mean and ignorant.thanks for the help im looking forward to the responses.
    The 80% or so that are nice about it are just doing their job. They get a MWAG call they have to respond. If they didn't and something were to happen, not only would it be their job, but the city would be looking at massive lawsuits.

    To those who get nasty about it, well if it is legal in MN, you might want to start carrying a recorder to document the harassment. A hit to their pocket book might get some education for them as to what is legal and what isn't.

    Honestly, it sounds like the biggest problem you have there is with the sheep who cry wolf at every shadow they see.
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  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    i need REAL advice on how to handle the harassment.

    basically if you are going to go against the system, right takes a distant second place to your mental health

    think back on blacks sitting at a soda fountain
    or in the front of the bus
    or womans struggles , the suffragettes, the glass ceiling
    whistle blowers-Karen Silkwood, Frank Serpico...

    well, i think the point is that is you are in the front of a movement, even one that is to correct an injustice;

    expect resistance.....and to be inconvenienced.

    good, bad....its the way it is
    Last edited by claude clay; July 10th, 2011 at 09:09 PM.
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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Holy wall of text Batman!

    From what I can decipher from the text, the OP OCs...as legal in his state...LEOs don't like it, and they harass him. My question to the OP is: what do you want to do about it?

    Have you checked out open carry.org? There are folks there who probably live in your area and can guide you on how to deal with your local PD, should you decide to file a complaint.

    Also...paragraph markings are helpful when narrating a story.
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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Yup. The thing is we've already watched this movie so many times before.
    He is new...lol we get to watch the re-runs
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    I don't think the LEOs are harassing you since you say each time they are responding to a MWAG call. Sounds like since they know who you are they aren't in a rush to pull you over and just talk to you back at home. They probably don't like it any more than you do. Personally I'd just put an untucked shirt over it and go about my business. A simple layer of cotton can solve a lot of problems, they won't get any more MWAG calls and you won't be questioned each time. It may not be the what you want but you've got to choose your battles wisely. Win win for everyone.
    Bubbiesdad likes this.
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