This is a discussion on daughter and carry within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by apvbguy I don't think that she can conceal carry while under 21. FWIW my son just turned 21 and is getting his ...
Another idea besides a firearm is less than leathal devices like pepper spray and stun guns. Also teaching her to have good situational awareness is good.
As already mentioned, having a firearm is a lot more than just being able to carry one.
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I think it bears expansion and explanation. I have a HG and OC spray and a taclight, and I'm not willing to use my HG and not interested in killing or shooting anyone. Having said that, if I encounter a situation that is 'gravely extreme', such as a BG drawing down on or grabbing my love one, I think I'd shoot without thinking.
I would say 'I didn't shoot the BG - 'it' did' (meaning my reflexes). I will do EVERYTHING in my power to avoid shooting someone, besides cowering on the floor in the back of a convenience store. How is this worse than having no gun at all?
What you are describing as your mindset is very similar to what most on this forum have expressed. We would do everything we could to avoid using a firearm but if it became the only thing left to implement to save ourselves or those we love we are WILLING to use it... and so are you.
The truly UNWILLING wouldn't even use it in the gravest extreme. They would hesitate. They might pull it and hope that the mere presence of it is enough but if their bluff is called they will not shoot. They can (and sometimes do) get the firearm taken away from them and used on them instead. Or the fact that they even have it insights more rage in their attacker. Now the assault has turned into a murder and they've provided their murderer with a firearm... THAT is worse than having no gun at all.
My mother has expressed to me often that she does not have it in her to shoot someone. She understands and respects people who do but even in the face of death she could not take a life. She feels she MIGHT be able to do it if her children or grandchildren were in danger but says given the choice between pepper spray and a gun she would choose the pepper spray. She says she would pray for the strength to die praying for her attacker with a heart toward forgiveness rather than trying to kill him. She truly and deeply believes that the power of life and death should not be in her hands. My Dad keeps trying to get her to shoot, etc, and he just needs to face the fact that a firearm is not for her. She is unwilling to use it. She'd be much better off with something less lethal that she feels no great apprehension using if the time came.
And to fall back on a defense of "I didn't shoot the BG - 'it' did'" is not going to fly much further than your own mind. When the officers respond and write up their report it's going to say that YOU shot the BG. When the news reports the incident they are going to report that YOU fired the shots. Saying your reflexes shot on their own will get you no further than possible a raised eyebrow or two.... someone still had to pull the trigger and that someone was you. You did the shooting. You may not have wanted to but you did... you were willing to do it.
Some younger people don't know what they are willing to do yet. They are still forming their perception of the world and their own life. Some THINK they could take a life if they needed to but they might not even be sure what that means. You do see it in the military from time to time. A kid joins thinking he's going to be billy-bad-butt and when it comes down to it and he is required to kill he can't. He hesitates. The reality of what he's being required to do causes him pause and he finds himself unwilling and unable to pull the trigger. Sometimes other people die because of it... THAT is worse than having no gun at all as well. They often get over it but not without guilt and possibly a lot of PTSD to go through as well.
A person being asked if they are ready to carry a firearm should also be asked, under no uncertain terms, if they are also ready to KILL another human being. No, none of us truly knows what we are capable of until the time comes and some who THINK they are ready might not be but at least they have thought about it and considered it and reasonable prepared for the idea of taking a life if they had to. That's better than ending up staring down a gun as someone threatening your life and THEN having that moral discussion.
If a BG or BGs are willing and able to do harm to a victim, what is to stop them from finding a second victim and so on?
The answer may be LE who will only be there after the fact, if they were present when the crime was happening the attack would not have happened, but that does not help the first, second, and other victims of the same BG or BGs with no LE around.
Punishing the BG or BGs after the fact does not help the victim during the attack or worse.
The BG or Bgs are not the answer they are the problem, the LE is not the answer if the BG or BGs pick their victim being sure that no LE are present.
The only answer is for the intended victim to defend them self in what ever way is best suited for them.
If intended victim number 1 stops the BG or BGs cold then victim 2 or 3 or 12 will not be victims of these BGs at all.
NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
Getting back to the original issue at hand, certainly law takes precedent but age alone should not be a factor in whether or not a young person carries a gun. We are all aware, or should be aware that not everyone matures at the same pace. Some people are very mature at 18 while others may not obtain that level of maturity until in their mid 20's...or even older. A cornucopia of ramifications and responsibilities accompany the exercise of the 2A. A wrong decision can destroy more than one life while a correct decision may save a physical life but do irreparable damage to the psychological being. Tough call and only you know if your daughter is ready and mature enough to protect herself and accept the ensuing responsibilities and ramifications. And of course, as a parent, the question I would be asking myself, am I ready to accept the actions of my minor child.
I might add that both of my offspring were introduced to the sport of shooting in their pre-teen years. They shot with me because I enjoyed it but they did not really have an interest on their own. As they graduated college, both my kids went into Law Enforcement and now are true gun enthusiasts. They enjoy the sport and both carry on and off duty and we have our most fun together competing with each other at the range. I don't worry for one second that they will not be able to protect themselves and I know they have the proper training to be able to make the correct decision if, heaven forbid, that time ever came.
NRA Certified Instructor
Gold Seal CFI
1st Air Cav Vietnam Veteran
What Lima said. In both of her posts.
As to the 'reactionary' shooting - I'm sitting here, my HG next to me and a big bad dude comes crashing through the front door and I'm at my most extreme vulnerability, I think my reaction is to try and get the front sight on him before he closes the gap (and start squeezing the trigger).
When I'm not at max-vulnerability and it's just me and no loved one, and the situation is not the gravest extreme (something's going to happen NOW), I'm backing up, seeking cover, evading. If the BG draws down on or aggressively attacks my loved one and I'm armed, I'm shooting, no thought, no questions asked, no 'talking'.
BUT, we don't ever know what will happen unless we have trained ultra-realistically (which you seem to have done - good for you), or one is a combat-veteran and has pulled the trigger and taken a life a few times. Everyone has circumstances under which they will hesitate. Those are the most problematic (say a relative is threatening to shoot someone, or there's a 10 year old with a gun).
Though I say 'I won't kill someone', I don't really know. I don't think it will include any moral judging - it will be a self-preservation instinct/reaction.
I also think it's really silly to have to declare any kind of oath when you take possession of your defensive HG about being ready to kill, even to yourself. Those are just words. I carry to prevent a situation where I'm forced to fight. I definitely don't carry to ONLY use the presentation of a gun as a deterrent. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't people out there carrying 'pseudo-guns' or unloaded guns and they truly are deluded, imo.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your POV.
There are people in this world that when the door get's knocked down will put their hands in the air and say take what you want. That will openly surrender themselves. That will willingly put them at that disadvantage so that when the gravest extreme hits and they decide they want to fight back, all they'll have is their fists to the BG's gun or knife or numbers and surprise. If someone is armed but even in the gravest of circumstance cannot defend themselves, but turn the other cheek, then that gun can be used against them. If someone has a gun and is willing to use it but failed to train with it, then they may drop to the standard fully extended arms and have the gun taken from them with ease; they may disregard firearm safety rules and fire inadvertently, AD news stories are disturbingly regular lately. One member of a local forum had issue with encounters of a college age girl that would brandish guys that didn't give her their number, irresponsible handling is dangerous, and the girl had some other possible instability issues, steps were taken to get her permit investigated.
Just because someone has a pacifist mentality doesn't mean they're going to give it up when faced with extreme circumstances. Many died for their beliefs at Columbine as two monsters questioned the library. Schools now train their students to huddle and cower in a corner in the event that an active shooter is present; years from now children who have grown up with these drills will surrender to imminent death naturally as leaving a building that is on fire. There is a similar thread running on the mentality; and while it's not something that seems as a natural response to members of this board, it is a common level of thought among the general populous, and there has been more than one that has given their life without a fight when an armed robbery goes bad.
Glock Certified Armorer
A person should know the laws regarding use of lethal force and be prepared physically, mentally, and emotionally to defend themselves accordingly if they are going to carry a firearm. If not, the gun can be taken and used against them by a BG who would not hesitate to use it.
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.
I have a similar, indirect experience with this........story time.
Back in the eighties my uncle was a reserve deputy. My cousion had just graduated high school and was going to college in Kilgore, Tx. (she was a Rangerette!). Growing up with my uncle she's killed her first deer by 13 and was as much a part of our family's hunting, shooting, fishing, mud/trail riding, etc. as ANY of us boys. She was as knowlegable, safe, and as mature as any 18 YO.... more than many, less than some others. Well, she was sent on her way with 'special daddy training' and good idea of what she would need after moving away without Momma and Daddy close by. She had a .38 that remained a close companion for many, many moons. She knew what it ment and what it represented.
Now, by NO means am I advocating breaking any laws or getting her (or NOT getting her) a sidearm for her own personal protection. Your daughter, and YOU, must know your states laws (and the laws of any other state she'll reside/travel in/through)
AND she'll ultimatly have make that decision for herself. Knowing what's legal and what she needs/wants to do has to be weighed aginst the possiable concequences.
If she wants to, and is willing, get her into a repuatable self-defense/firearm class directed twords women specifically (if that's an option). Whatever she decides is best for he,r help and support her as only Daddy can.........I have two daughters of my own, one going to college soon and another a junior in HS, so I completly understand the situation your faceing Dang having to raise my two little estrogen-generators is infinatly tougher than raising my two boys Your just a Daddy that cares and wanting the best you can do for and give to you daughter.
Lima's advice comes from her experience/knowledge and I have a very high respect for what she has to say on this.....and most anything she weigh's in on.
This will, which-ever way it turns out, end up being one of those decisions that the 'journey' will be one of those close bonding 'things' that only fathers and daughters will share me thinks.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
He said travel a lot. so legally it sounds like a no no with different state laws and depending on the area cities and counties laws/ ordinances. Also check reciprocity issues with states, they may recognize a 21 y/o permit but not a 18 y/o
here in Maine. She can get a permit to carry after the age of 18. She could also get her out of state permit for NH.
She is quite competent with anything from a single action revolver to a 12 guage to her LCP. She is going to get her permit to carry soon and I have no problem with this. I am a little concerned about the gun in her apartment. I will probably buy her a small safe for it. I trust her to be able to do what she needs to, if she ever needs to. None of us can know if we are truly able of taking a life until we are faced with making that choice. I believe that we are both survivors and can do what needs to done if it ever comes to that. Hopefully we will both lead uneventful lives, and it never will.
I often wrestle with this myself. Last week I rode with my 18 year old and she didn't want to go through a bad part of town. I said "honey, I have my gun, let's just go". That brought up self defense. She reaches in her floor and pulls out an unopened package of pepper spray and says "I'm protected". FACEPALM!
I reminded her she needed to remove it from the pack BEFORE she needs it. I'm rambling, let me make my point. My 18 year old has NO situation awareness. A murderer could be right in front of her with a knife and she would wave and say "hi". And in the hands of someone like that, a gun could be a big mistake as she would likely pull it way too late, or it would be taken from her.
For now, the pepper spray, my prayers, and an upcoming women's SD class are all that protect her. But she and I will be visiting the range soon.
18 yr olds can have/buy a long gun here , but not legally get a CC license forhandguns until 21 and cannot buy a handgun until they are 21. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it. But we can put a gun in their hand and send them to Afghanistan, but when they come home they aren't considered mature enough to handle a gun.
I think everyone needs to decide, is it 18 , or 21, and stick with it.
AS for should a specific person carry, are they really prepared to ? And , are they safe with a gun, and responsible ? Do they show good judgment ?
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."