OC-er suing police
This is a discussion on OC-er suing police within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hit them where it hurts, in the pocket book. Ooops, I guess that means that the tax payers are going to have to up some ...
September 18th, 2011 01:56 PM
Hit them where it hurts, in the pocket book. Ooops, I guess that means that the tax payers are going to have to up some more money, because their employees don't know their head from a hole in the ground.
September 18th, 2011 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by OldVet
I don't know as I quite fully understand your question^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you saying that if CC'ing is legal, than OC'ing would not be?
That is not the case here in Michigan.
Both are legal.
I hope he would have sued for more. I pray he wins.
To have officers of the law, express their disdain for something that is legal in their state, AND city, saying this is how he better expect to be treated, if OC'ing is a travisty of justice, a diservice to the public at large, and an insult to their integrity.
I would think the ignorant officers in question would appreciate all the knuckledraggers calling with a heads-up with all the illegal activity they are going to partake in, instead of all the honest people phoning in with all the LEGAL activity they are going to pursue on any given day.
His lawyer should go into court and ask the city to cite how many times in the past 20 years they have recieved calls from honest folks stating that they are going to be out and about doing everyday normal LEGAL stuff and just wanted to give the city notification.
Here is a link for Mi opencarry,,,, Michigan Open Carry, Inc. | Nothing to hide!
MOC was formed as a Michigan non-profit organization in March of 2009. MOC was formed out of the Michigan Forum on opencarry.org (OCDO). OCDO was started by John Pierce and Mike Stollenwerk in 2004. These men are responsible for revitalizing the growing practice of the open carry of a handgun. Michigan is one of the fastest growing states in regards to the practice of open carrying a handgun. 44 States allow some type of Open Carry of a handgun. 6 States ban open carry. Most bans were enacted during or after reformation, to bar freed slaves from carrying weapons. Four states have petitions to rescind this ban. The open carry movement is growing in the U.S., much like the Concealed carry movement has in the last 10 years. Time and time again citizens have shown to be responsible when carrying a firearm. Studies by John Lott and Howard Nemerov and others have shown that lawful firearm owners are less likely to commit any kind of crime let alone a violent one.
I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."
M&Pc .357sig, 2340Sigpro .357sig
September 18th, 2011 03:21 PM
I remember a post a while back about that very situation happening not far from me...
Originally Posted by rgbiker
A man pulled up at a gas station off of I-95, OCing...got out of his truck to fill it up...
At the other pump was a family from Massachusetts...the husband and wife FREAKED OUT...and it just happend that a county sheriff's officer was at the station...
The wife ran up to him to report a MWAG...the officer walked over, talked to the OCer for a moment and walked away...the wife wanted to know why he wasn't arresting the man...and the officer informed her "Why, he hasn't committed any crime"...and she apparently lost it...
To the OP...while I understand your feelings about OC as I never do it, I think we need to support this guy a little more as he is trying to protect rights for all of us...
"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready."
September 18th, 2011 03:32 PM
+1 Exactly! There should be nothing scary about a OC'd 1911 cocked and locked....unless its out of your holster and pointed at a BG!!
Originally Posted by ArkhmAsylm
September 18th, 2011 04:24 PM
Openly carrying a gun is following the law.
Officers, he said, are duty bound and can't assume someone openly carrying a gun is following the law.
September 18th, 2011 04:28 PM
Well not gonna comment on the merits of the case from a video snipet and his news interview.
The incident occured a couple of years ago and he just now got the funds together through donations and found someone to take the case. The last entry on the homepage about it was from Oct 2010.
Obviously there is something more to it or the city would have settled out of court by now I would think anyway but just my opinion. Again this incident occured in a state that has no specific law governing open carry so it is open to interpretation by both the general public and LE.
Without going over the same stuff again and again regarding OC the officers have a duty to respond to the call, plain and simple, how the individual officers handle the call is where the problem lies. I did notice that this guy was carrying a Hi Point now that may be his weapon of choice but if this is another case of OCing a cheap handgun hoping to get stopped and draw attention so you can sue someone he loses any respect or empathy I have. Hopefully he will hire a fashion consultant before he goes to court.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
September 18th, 2011 07:22 PM
I don't OC to avoid this type of issue. But if it is legal in your state, the state has an obligation to mandate how the police respond to the OC'er. I hope this man wins a large sum of money and the officers have their badges revoked. I have a great deal of respect for the LE Community and am thankful they put their lives on the line every day. But there is no cause to treat a person with a gun like this.
September 19th, 2011 12:33 AM
If people had kept OCing like they did when I was younger, then it wouldn't even be a matter or discussion now. But the Dem's used the Kennedy assasination, B. Kennedy and MLK shootings, to justify and push the 1968 gun control act.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
September 19th, 2011 01:58 AM
I have lot's of respect for the LE community also.....but....although directives concerning the legality of OC are passed down from Shift Commanders to be read at squad roll call each shift, how many cops will actually listen and not form their own personal opinion about OC?
Originally Posted by smolck
According to the OC site, several generous settlements have been awarded to OC individuals in Virginia and Louisiana.
To my knowledge, there is an case pending in a North East Pennsylvania community.
September 19th, 2011 02:28 AM
If you are going to OC, you can (or at least you should) expect some hassle because of the society we live in. That's the reality of protecting your rights: You will inevitably have to deal with those who refuse to recognize them, and yes sometimes those people wear a badge.
You should also be prepared to PROPERLY handle yourself during the encounter no matter how bad it goes. If you aren't prepared to behave in a manner that reflects well on all gun owners, then do the rest of us a favor and cover up.
If your rights are violated, you have legal recourse. Few things inspire police training bulletins faster than a successful lawsuit, so pursue it.
People shouldn't have to endure abuse for maintaining their rights. Yep, that's true. They shouldn't have to die for it, either; but that's what some people in this country have been doing for over two centuries, starting with a bunch of guys who told the British to take a flying leap. Those guys risked their blood for openly arming themselves, count yourself blessed that the worst you'll risk for OC is a rude lecture, some manhandling, and the loss of a half hour. And you STILL get to have your day in court!
"The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
September 19th, 2011 09:22 AM
Maybe after this he will buy something other than a Hi-Point.
The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, World Drifter
September 19th, 2011 09:38 AM
Sorry Comish Green - you got it backwards. Officers should be duty bound to FOLLOW THE LAW AS IT'S WRITTEN, not follow the urges of their emotions and hormones. The origin of the word hysterical is traced back to women, being labeled that as a reason to do a hysterectomy:
Warren Police Commissioner Jere Green, who was named in the suit, couldn't comment specifically, but he said he supports the officer's actions 100-percent. Officers, he said, are duty bound and can't assume someone openly carrying a gun is following the law.
So he needs to have the nice officers examined to see if they have some sand in their vaginal regions, LOL. (no diss to women on the forum who are much more logical and calm than this.)
The history of the notion of hysteria can be traced to ancient times; in ancient Greece it was described in the gynecological treatises of the Hippocratic corpus, which date from the 5th and 4th centuries BCE. Plato's dialogue Timaeus compares a woman's uterus to a living creature that wanders throughout a woman’s body, "blocking passages, obstructing breathing, and causing disease." The concept of a pathological, wandering womb was later viewed as the source of the term hysteria, which stems from the Greek cognate of uterus, ὑστέρα (hystera).
R.E.D. (Retired. Extremely. Dangerous.)
September 19th, 2011 11:21 AM
I would like to pose this question, has any criminal ever OC'd? Wouldn't common sense tell an officer that an honest to goodness criminal with intent to do something bad would probably choose to conceal his weapon so as to avoid a run in with police?
I understand if you choose to OC you may encounter police officers asking questions (which is one reason I only CC), but what is wrong with the officer politely (albeit cautiously) approaching the OC'er and then as that they disarm for the duration of the conversation. Check the license, the person, etc, and then return the weapon and they be on their way?
September 19th, 2011 11:56 AM
Mainly, because that's not what the LAW says they can do; more specifically:
Originally Posted by smolck
1. They can ask, but without RAS/SAF then can not demand it (under law; except in California for the infamous 'e' check). If you consent you give up your 2A and 4A rights - why go there?;
2. I don't want anyone HANDLING my firearm in my presence and sweeping me with it, fumbling to find the mag release and other stuff. It's much MUCH safer in its proper holster;
3. It sends a message that LEOs can do illegal things with impunity, due to bullying and lying;
4. People have been shot with their own firearms by allowing newbie LEOs to disarm them (or nearly shot; one LEO put a round through the roof of the car fumbling with it);
5. Criminals don't OC;
6. If it's not a traffic stop there is no jurisdiction to search, check, or look up anything, without probable cause;
7. There's no 'stop and ID' law in any states (excepting the ruling under Hibble);
8. It's completely unnecessary and the LEOs know the guy they stopped is a law-abiding citizen - they've cultivated this sense over the years, but they do it anyway because of a variety of non-jurisdictional "reasons", most of them are due to jealousy, and elitism and testosterone poisoning.
...I'll stop there. :)
You'd think if there were any laws a LEO would bone up on besides traffic law it would be handgun law, but no-o-o (allegedly).
R.E.D. (Retired. Extremely. Dangerous.)
September 19th, 2011 12:01 PM
OK, as usual, this has gone way over the top.
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