Open carry issues - Page 2

Open carry issues

This is a discussion on Open carry issues within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jtg Thanks guys. Its good to be here. As I am a resident of California, I can only speak to my perceptions ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtg View Post
    Thanks guys. Its good to be here. As I am a resident of California, I can only speak to my perceptions from this state. What may pass as "no big thing" in Az or other states, may be a big deal in Ca. It is very unusual for most folks to see a exposed firearm in public and I think that the "freak out" factor is higher because of our messed up gun laws. I would hazard a guess that that strapping on your exposed handgun and walking down mainstreet Prescott Az or humble Tx, you will experience a most distinct diffrence in attitudes by the public and unfortunatrely, the police than if you did the same in Downtown LA or New York. So, my original comment was reflective of California, no other states. I just hate to see more of our rights taken from us by well meaning but misdirected confrontational folks.
    In AZ it would not be a big problem, since it is legal. In TX it will get you a close inspection of the concrete. OC IS NOT legal in TX and you will get cuffed and stuffed for it.

    My understanding of the OC movement in CA has been fueled by the fact that it is very difficult to get a CC permit in most places and almost impossible in some. Thus the only 2 options left are either go unarmed, or OC. Easiest way to eliminate the OC issue in CA is for the legislature to vote in Shall
    Issue. But I think we all know what the chances of that are.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Yeah, in CA you might be harassed but as long as it's unloaded or your not in the city you would be legal. In TX you'd be arrested since OC is illegal. Go figure. My opinion is that if the legislature bans OC it will open the door for a successful lawsuit to bring shall issue CC to CA. The judicial branch and legislative branch are getting ready to set up an unconstitutional conflict on carrying firearms in CA. The CASC ruled recently that they did not need shall issue CC because they could OC. When the legislature takes that away there will immediately be another lawsuit. Just watch.





    Then where are the rights? Unexcercised rights are just rights that are voluntarily surrendered. What good is the right to carry on paper if you can't carry in practice? I'm not sure that they lost much. And as I posted above, I think they have a lot to gain when the dust settles. It's not the followers that cause change.
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  3. #18
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    If you open carry,which with some people i'm not a fan of,you are going to get looks from LE,I have been I'D by officers that don't know me,If a citizen refuses to cooperate peacfully,well, there are other ways to make he/she/it comply.
    Quote Originally Posted by jtg View Post
    I am new here. I do not want to upset anyone needlessly but something has been bothering me about open carry and I wanted to mention something. I am a former Marine and have been working as a police officer in California for almost 10 years. I am a lifelong hunter and have been a member of the NRA since early teens. I think that CCW's should be granted to those who not only qualify, but even if you do not have a "demonstrated need". I have stopped several drivers who had guns in the car (legally) and I have never freaked out over it. It is our right as citizens to carry weapons. I even think we should bring back saps and blackjacks in LE work, but thats another topic. But when I see or hear about a open carry guy or gal, intentionally trying to get attention from cops, and then acting like, well , like a jack*** "I do not have to give you ID officer. Am I being detained"? Well, thats just wonderful. In typical knee jerk reaction, the State of Ca will probably see too it that it becomes illegal to open carry. And when that happens, those of you that have acted like fools in dealing with LE and trying to make a statement instead of being reasonable and providing infromation to get the contact over with, will truly be the ones to blame.

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    I'm with archer51 here.
    In many/most CA counties you can't get a CCP, so what other options are there besides open carry?
    So what you have are law abiding citizens pitted, not only against their anti-gun politicians...but against the LE officers that have to enforce the laws.
    Like it or not, you're going to have a certain percentage that are going to be obnoxious and obstinate about it.
    Here in NJ it's illegal to carry anything but a 3/4 ounce 'can' of pepper spray.
    And I'd guess that here in Jersey at least half of LE are downright hostile to citizens owning, let alone carrying, handguns.
    That attitude really bugs me.
    Having said all that, I'm not in anyway condoning rudeness or troublemaking.
    These guys have 'shot themselves in the foot.' But I do understand them... I understand their frustration.
    Last edited by Brass63; September 28th, 2011 at 07:08 AM.
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    I found some posts on this topic/thread which are almost incomprehensible, from posters who present the CC/DC/OC movement as ignorant, bigoted and blood thirsty by their comments. Guess it takes all kinds. Point is, there are a few nutty buddys in every walk of life. The bulk (haha) of those who carry are responsible, peaceful and law-abiding. Let's not focus on the bad examples, shall we?

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    Originally Posted by mlr1m
    I will agree with the portion that I highlighted. If these people had not chosen to exercise their rights there would have been no need to take those rights away.

    Michael
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Then where are the rights? Unexcercised rights are just rights that are voluntarily surrendered. What good is the right to carry on paper if you can't carry in practice? I'm not sure that they lost much. And as I posted above, I think they have a lot to gain when the dust settles. It's not the followers that cause change.
    Exactly my point. To me the OP was stating how in his opinion that the government was forced to take away rights not because of any abuse but merely because they were exercised.

    Michael

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    First welcome to the new members hope you enjoy your time here.

    Do you really believe that the CA Leg. would not have moved to ban OC of unloaded guns anyway? Seriously? CA leg folk believe one thing, guns should not be in the hands of anyone other than police and military and have shown a willingness to do everything they can to make that a reality. So, please, if you are going to blame someone, blame the leftists in the leg and the police who make a big deal when confronting people OC'ing. The police are just as much to blame, if not more, than the OC'ers. Ask yourself how many criminals you have encountered OC'ing in your 10 years of being an officer? I would guess zero. I wonder why...

    Wow I guess there always has to be that one person. Please enlighten with your experiences as a LEO and also your experiences in the laws and legaslative process in the State of California? Please explain how many SD situations you have been in or criminals you have encountered in your lifetime? Until you have walked in the OP's shoes or anyone else's for that matter you better be able to back up your comments with some fact.

    The OP gave a humble and honest opinion on something from the state that he lives and works making a living at wearing a firearm on a daily basis. The mere fact that a person is OC'ing does not make them a criminal BUT on the same token just because they are OC'ing does not mean they are not a criminal either. Please explain how LE is to blame for the decisions of state government? They enforce the laws that are written and respond to the calls that are dispatched.

    I have seen dozens of videos by residents of the state of California who are OC'ing just to get attention. They carry cheap handguns in case they are confiscated so as I was told on here "So they don't lose much". There are dozens of other videos posted of person with rifles, shotguns and everything else at restaurants, driving down the street and other places and then they just wait for someone to call it in so they can videotape it for youtube. Do you not think the government officials see this mess? The OC'ers themselves in interviews say themselves "We are doing this to educate the public" by carrying an AR at the salad bar at the local steak house?

    Michigan is one of the worst states for this. It is so bad the Michigan OC has put out a public statement that even though they promote OC rights even these guys are over the top and they distance themselves from them. So before you cast blame on others you need to look at the needless assinine stunts others are pulling. They wanted attention, they got it and it is no one else's fault but their own if their rights are taken away. I am just sorry it will affect so many others who do the right thing.
    First, I never accused the OP of anything, other than, apparently being okay with the state banning OC because some people did not respond well to police questioning them. Guess what, the OP needs to got over people not responding to officers nicely all the time. Just saying.

    Secondly, I did take issue that he blamed the OC'ers instead of the legislature. Wow, hang me from the Yard Arm. When left with no other option, citizens may take it upon themselves to protest infringement of their rights. Who would have thought that might happen in the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    If you open carry,which with some people i'm not a fan of,you are going to get looks from LE,I have been I'D by officers that don't know me,If a citizen refuses to cooperate peacfully,well, there are other ways to make he/she/it comply.
    Michigan is not a stop and ID state, this kind of attitude, here, gets LEO's sued, and citizens paid, often. This is nothing more than harassment.
    Last edited by SIXTO; September 30th, 2011 at 08:42 AM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    First welcome to the new members hope you enjoy your time here.



    Wow I guess there always has to be that one person. Please enlighten with your experiences as a LEO and also your experiences in the laws and legaslative process in the State of California? Please explain how many SD situations you have been in or criminals you have encountered in your lifetime? Until you have walked in the OP's shoes or anyone else's for that matter you better be able to back up your comments with some fact.

    The OP gave a humble and honest opinion on something from the state that he lives and works making a living at wearing a firearm on a daily basis. The mere fact that a person is OC'ing does not make them a criminal BUT on the same token just because they are OC'ing does not mean they are not a criminal either. Please explain how LE is to blame for the decisions of state government? They enforce the laws that are written and respond to the calls that are dispatched.

    I have seen dozens of videos by residents of the state of California who are OC'ing just to get attention. They carry cheap handguns in case they are confiscated so as I was told on here "So they don't lose much". There are dozens of other videos posted of person with rifles, shotguns and everything else at restaurants, driving down the street and other places and then they just wait for someone to call it in so they can videotape it for youtube. Do you not think the government officials see this mess? The OC'ers themselves in interviews say themselves "We are doing this to educate the public" by carrying an AR at the salad bar at the local steak house?

    Michigan is one of the worst states for this. It is so bad the Michigan OC has put out a public statement that even though they promote OC rights even these guys are over the top and they distance themselves from them. So before you cast blame on others you need to look at the needless assinine stunts others are pulling. They wanted attention, they got it and it is no one else's fault but their own if their rights are taken away. I am just sorry it will affect so many others who do the right thing.
    Really? I am live in Michigan, and you are 100% wrong. We have our State police putting out bulletins saying to leave OCers alone. We have a huge movement in Michiganopencarry and MIGunowners. Where did you get your info?

    As for the whole California thing, I think it is a foreign country also, thank God in Michigan we have Castle Doctrine, State Preemption, and Shall Issue. We can open carry, we can conceal carry, we have the right to defend ourselves.

    As for open carry, and Cops, and loud mouths... Well, I am well known to hate cops, and not respect what they have to say, I won't rant here, but I will say, how about people who open carry are just enjoying their rights to do so, and not just to make a cop mad, or create a scene. Heaven knows cops don't need excuses to get upset. Not all open carriers are looking for attention, or even most. They are ordinary citizens, and should be respected and treated as such.

    I am ex Army, honorably discharged, expert qualified in BRM, and I chose to be an ICU nurse, what makes you more qualified then me to wear a handgun? Your badge? No. Your Ego? No. Nothing does.
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  9. #24
    New Member Array jtg's Avatar
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    moby Clark,

    You are way off base. There are many ways I could respond to your comment, but I will remain civil. I do not think that I alluded to me being "ok" with legistlature banning OC. I think I was pretty clear in my first post that I am 100% in favor of citizens right to carry firearms. Do I personally think OC is smart? No. I do not. I think it is a pretty dumb way actually to carry a gun. But just because I have a poor opinion of it, does not mean that I think that right should be taken away. I would hazard a guess that you have never had to respond to a citizens call for service where the person is carrying a gun. We as law enforcement do not have the luxury of a crystal ball telling who is just exercising their OC right and who is looking for someone to shoot. I do not expect everyone to people "responding nicely to me all the time". For you to say that makes me think that you are not prepared to look at the very real issue of how ones behavior will be looked upon by the general public. When the public sees the OC guy/gal, trying to provoke a response by a cop by obviously going out of their way to cause friction wioth the stop/contact, then yes, that person is partially to blame for OC people being negatively portrayed. And you cant sit there and tell me that no one is trying to make a point by their actions when they do this. It is a script that is not working for them. And please tell me what branch of service you served in? When I hear you say "hung from a yard arm" and the "who woulda thought it would happen in the USA?", it sounds like you are implying somethething that goes directly against the ideals I fought for in my service of this country. So stop being the victim and unless you can look at the issue from open eyes, on both sides and see how to win the fight, stop making stupid comments. And "Just saying" is so played out. Find an original line, please?

    Just saying...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtg View Post
    moby Clark,

    You are way off base. There are many ways I could respond to your comment, but I will remain civil. I do not think that I alluded to me being "ok" with legistlature banning OC. I think I was pretty clear in my first post that I am 100% in favor of citizens right to carry firearms. Do I personally think OC is smart? No. I do not. I think it is a pretty dumb way actually to carry a gun. But just because I have a poor opinion of it, does not mean that I think that right should be taken away. I would hazard a guess that you have never had to respond to a citizens call for service where the person is carrying a gun. We as law enforcement do not have the luxury of a crystal ball telling who is just exercising their OC right and who is looking for someone to shoot. I do not expect everyone to people "responding nicely to me all the time". For you to say that makes me think that you are not prepared to look at the very real issue of how ones behavior will be looked upon by the general public. When the public sees the OC guy/gal, trying to provoke a response by a cop by obviously going out of their way to cause friction wioth the stop/contact, then yes, that person is partially to blame for OC people being negatively portrayed. And you cant sit there and tell me that no one is trying to make a point by their actions when they do this. It is a script that is not working for them. And please tell me what branch of service you served in? When I hear you say "hung from a yard arm" and the "who woulda thought it would happen in the USA?", it sounds like you are implying somethething that goes directly against the ideals I fought for in my service of this country. So stop being the victim and unless you can look at the issue from open eyes, on both sides and see how to win the fight, stop making stupid comments. And "Just saying" is so played out. Find an original line, please?

    Just saying...
    Thanks for the feedback and thank you for your service.

    I live in MN, Minneapolis to be precise. We are a liberal haven. When we received the priveledge of being able to carry, OC was not forbidden, therefore, it was lawful. I have OC'ed almost every day since I got my permit in '04. I have been approached by officers who were told, by the leadership, to confront, and I mean confront, OC'ers. They did. All of them, without fail, were professional. Thankfully, as MPD has a less than stellar reputation. The one thing they also wanted to do was keep the engagement simple and short. Only once did I get a lecture. The other dozen or so times, I was told to have a nice day. No one here, and believe me, liberals were looking for a way to "Repeal Conceal", used the numerous OC "incidents" to attempt, well, anything.

    But when you start off a new thread detailing your "problem" with OC'ers, who have no other legal way to carry, since you are so supportive, it raises the hackles of those of us who take carry of any kind, as a very dear right. So, if I am way off base, I apologize. But to blame anyone other than the legislature of the State of California is, in my opinion, to raise concern as to whose side you are on.

  11. #26
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    Moby Clark,

    Thanks for the level response back. I work with several cops who unfortunately, like to act a fool when it comes to citizen contacts. And, I apologize for the "stupid" comment. It just raises my hackles too when I feel like someone is implying something about my beliefs in the constitution. So, please accept my apology. As for the seperate thread on my "problem" with OC. There is no problem. I think it is a poor way to carry a firearm is all, that is if you are trying to remain under the radar for criminals....but like I said, this may be be due to my living in Ca where it is unusual to see OC. The former is just my persponal opinion. In Ca, you can only OC if the gun is unloaded....so I never got the ;point of showing off a unloaded gun for all to see. But..I absolutely hate Ca gun laws and think they are backa***wards in most respects. And I spent a summer in Duluth...loved it!!!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtg View Post
    Moby Clark,

    Thanks for the level response back. I work with several cops who unfortunately, like to act a fool when it comes to citizen contacts.
    If you live in Ca and can't get a CC as a normal citizen, how do you carry if you don't OC? Oh, nevermind, I see you work in a support position with LEOs and therefore can't be expected to know what RAS or SAF is. Might be worth researching just for your edification.

    You say citizens act like 'fools' for asking if they are being detained. How is this 'foolish'? If you are not being detained you should know it. Not every 'stop' is a detainment if you're not driving, for example.

    I don't know why a LEO would want to stop and ID a person walking their dog, yet it happens. Maybe you're a fan of everyone carrying their 'papers' and Passport?

    How do your workmates 'act like a fool' re citizen contacts? Be specific if possible (no names).

    TIA

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    Really? I am live in Michigan, and you are 100% wrong. We have our State police putting out bulletins saying to leave OCers alone. We have a huge movement in Michiganopencarry and MIGunowners. Where did you get your info?

    Dear Slave. I to will attempt to be as civil as I can in responding to your post, however before you open your piehole and start spouting who is right and wrong you need to read up on your own open carry site in regards to their policies regarding open carry of long guns and the facts regarding the lawsuits currently filed because of them up to and including the restraining order issued against MOC that was issued by a judge.

    The following was taken from your own MOC website in an open letter to members and those who take part in their online forums. So either you are not an active member or do not take part in their forums or are just running off at the mouth.

    http://miopencarry.org/moc_files/cadl_tro.pdf
    The pleadings allege that individuals have openly carried shotguns and rifles in the library. Michigan Open Carry, Inc. respects all Second Amendment Rights. However, Michigan Open Carry, Inc. does not advocate in the area of long gun open carry and seeks to educate the public and members of law enforcement about the legality of handgun open carry only. In fact, Michigan Open Carry, Inc. excludes long gun open carry discussions from its online forum.


    I don't really care if you like cops, respect them or listen to what they say. I no longer wear a badge so I do not have to deal with people who dont play well with LE so stroke on with whatever you want to do.
    I never said all OC'ers are looking for attention but many are. The internet is/was flooded with MOC, and other folks carrying long guns and every thing else waiting to and wanting to get into a confrontation with LE in order to "Educate the public" so again before you open your mouth and spout off that you know what happens with MOC and in your state go to youtube and look. One of my favorites is the guy riding a motorcycle with a slung AR-15 with a guy following him with a video camera, no he is not looking for attention what would make you think that?

    And to end your post nothing more fitting than "My pee pee is bigger than your pee pee".

    I am ex Army, honorably discharged, expert qualified in BRM, and I chose to be an ICU nurse, what makes you more qualified then me to wear a handgun? Your badge? No. Your Ego? No. Nothing does.

    I originally put in a paragraph on this but then realized I dont have to. You know nothing about be or what I have been through or done or are doing in life so again before you spout off better do some checking. I will simply answer with this.

    Basically a heck of a lot more experience, maturity and judgement than you will ever see.

    As I stated I was a civil as I could be in my response. I do not oppose OC. I wish there was a national law covering it. My feelings in regards to any form of carry are in my sig line. Take a moment to read it, might help a bit. Until that time I stronly advise you do a bit more research before jumping in with both feet.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Badger j,
    I am not sure I understand your question. I work in a patrol function. Not admin. If that makes me support position meaning I do not create policy, that is true. In regards to some of my fellow officers, some are not as read up on calif law regardiign OC as they could be is what I meant, and they look dumb when they are on video. I wont even satisfy your question about "carrying papers" with a response. You sound like a cop hater and nothing I say will change that. Just dont call when someone breaks into your house and steals all your stuff.....we might cart you off to the gulag.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I do not oppose OC. I wish there was a national law covering it. My feelings in regards to any form of carry are in my sig line. Take a moment to read it, might help a bit. Until that time I stronly advise you do a bit more research before jumping in with both feet.
    You wish there were MORE laws? Laws governing a 2A RIGHT that already exists? You may be delusional, to quote Lewis Black.

    $.02

    Quote Originally Posted by jtg View Post
    Badger j,
    I am not sure I understand your question. I work in a patrol function. Not admin. If that makes me support position meaning I do not create policy, that is true. In regards to some of my fellow officers, some are not as read up on calif law regardiign OC as they could be is what I meant, and they look dumb when they are on video. I wont even satisfy your question about "carrying papers" with a response. You sound like a cop hater and nothing I say will change that. Just dont call when someone breaks into your house and steals all your stuff.....we might cart you off to the gulag.
    A LEO is the last person I will call if someone breaks into my house. I'll call GEICO and that will be that. Just what do you think a police officer can do AFTER my stuff is stolen? They can't do anything.

    As to your threat, why would you cart ME off to the Gulag? You are the confusing one.

    I'm not cop hater, btw, my good friend and workout buddy is the Chief of Albemarle county Sheriff's dept.

    I just wondered if you knew what RAS was WRT answering questions, stop and ID and other items related to a non-traffic stop. Apparently you don't, but you're welcome to elucidate.

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