Open carry issues

This is a discussion on Open carry issues within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am new here. I do not want to upset anyone needlessly but something has been bothering me about open carry and I wanted to ...

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Thread: Open carry issues

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    New Member Array jtg's Avatar
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    Open carry issues

    I am new here. I do not want to upset anyone needlessly but something has been bothering me about open carry and I wanted to mention something. I am a former Marine and have been working as a police officer in California for almost 10 years. I am a lifelong hunter and have been a member of the NRA since early teens. I think that CCW's should be granted to those who not only qualify, but even if you do not have a "demonstrated need". I have stopped several drivers who had guns in the car (legally) and I have never freaked out over it. It is our right as citizens to carry weapons. I even think we should bring back saps and blackjacks in LE work, but thats another topic. But when I see or hear about a open carry guy or gal, intentionally trying to get attention from cops, and then acting like, well , like a jack*** "I do not have to give you ID officer. Am I being detained"? Well, thats just wonderful. In typical knee jerk reaction, the State of Ca will probably see too it that it becomes illegal to open carry. And when that happens, those of you that have acted like fools in dealing with LE and trying to make a statement instead of being reasonable and providing infromation to get the contact over with, will truly be the ones to blame.
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    I agree with all you said.

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    New Member Array Crusher42's Avatar
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    Hello to all, as this is my first post. First, thank you for your service both in the military and continued service as a LEO. While I understand your point of view, I have to disagree to an extent. I would personally do as you suggested, I am sympathetic to the OC motives. I personally believe that those truly looking for attention are doing more harm then good for the cause. That being said, they are within their rights as much as a Muslim woman walking down the street wearing a burka. LEO should not stop a law abiding citizen for walking down a public street while exercising their constitutionally protected rights. I am sure that if we had LEOs stopping Muslim women for simply exercising their 1st Amendment right to freedom of religion we would have all kinds of sympathetic media attention, yet in the case of the 2A we only hear about the "gun nuts" who are so paranoid as to need to be armed in public. My take is to CC or OC (where it is not overtly offensive) and let people see that a polite man can walk by or be in the same store as you while OCing and nothing bad happens. If I am stopped by the police I am as helpful and friendly as I can be. I may still ask the LEO what caused him or her to query on that occasion. After all, it may be a "man with a gun call". If so I hope the caller is present for the calm and polite interchange with the LEO (that is of course counting on a professional response from said LEO). After which, the caller will hopefully learn a little about the constitution and their local laws in a positive way.

    Sorry, so long. My 1st post to any board.

    Cheers!
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    First off jtg, welcome to the forum.

    I open carry on a daily basis. When I first started carrying in Oklahoma, and then Virginia, I was a die hard CC'er. The state of Virginia actually forced me to start OC'ing. When I moved here, and up until last year, you could not CC in a restaurant that sold alcohol. You could legally OC. Thus if I wanted to go to a nice place to eat, and carry I had to OC. After doing so for quite sometime, and no one so much as batting an eye over it, I started OC'ing more and more. Now I rarely CC. I am also fortunate in that I work for a company that supports my right to carry. I work in the warehouse now, and still do field work on occasion. I carry and they know it. I do admit, if I go out into the field, I leave my gun in the truck while on site, but to and from I am armed.

    I interact with LEO almost every day on my way to work. I stop for my morning coffee and it is common for 2 or 3 LEO to be there. We normally exchange pleasantries, and on occasion they will inquire as to what I am carrying. Most notice if I change guns and ask what the new one is. I am always courteous. If they are curious, or ask questions I answer them honestly. By the same token, I expect to be treated with the same courtesy I show them. It's a 2 way street.
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    Ex Member Array rgbiker's Avatar
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    I live in Arizona and I OC a LOADED handgun nearly every day in public.

    Not to gain attention.

    Not to pi$$ off a COP.

    No "E checks".

    I OC because it's an accepted practice in Arizona and I'll bet that 90% of public I interact with don't even notice the handgun.....while others couldn't care less.

    California is a foreign country as far as I'm concerned. From what I've seen and heard people there will make it habit to interfere in another persons affairs.
    And that, IMHO, is why UNLOADED OC is not tolerated in California.

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    Senior Member Array tclance's Avatar
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    Welcome to DC from the CSRA

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    Ex Member Array tcon67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher42 View Post
    Hello to all, as this is my first post. First, thank you for your service both in the military and continued service as a LEO. While I understand your point of view, I have to disagree to an extent. I would personally do as you suggested, I am sympathetic to the OC motives. I personally believe that those truly looking for attention are doing more harm then good for the cause. That being said, they are within their rights as much as a Muslim woman walking down the street wearing a burka. LEO should not stop a law abiding citizen for walking down a public street while exercising their constitutionally protected rights. I am sure that if we had LEOs stopping Muslim women for simply exercising their 1st Amendment right to freedom of religion we would have all kinds of sympathetic media attention, yet in the case of the 2A we only hear about the "gun nuts" who are so paranoid as to need to be armed in public. My take is to CC or OC (where it is not overtly offensive) and let people see that a polite man can walk by or be in the same store as you while OCing and nothing bad happens. If I am stopped by the police I am as helpful and friendly as I can be. I may still ask the LEO what caused him or her to query on that occasion. After all, it may be a "man with a gun call". If so I hope the caller is present for the calm and polite interchange with the LEO (that is of course counting on a professional response from said LEO). After which, the caller will hopefully learn a little about the constitution and their local laws in a positive way.

    Sorry, so long. My 1st post to any board.

    Cheers!
    You and jtg both have great points. Anytime you are dealing with LEO, its never a good thing to escalate the situation by being rude . At the same time I do think it is a sad testimony that the American people are so brainwashed as to feel threatened by an armed citizen, simply because they dont have a badge. If there was someway we could change the emotional conditioning of the people and get them as comfortable being in the company of an armed citizen as they are an armed officer, then the gun control war would be won.

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    I think the key here is that so far everyone who has posted (and I believe most people on this forum) are not in it to be confrontational. They will be polite and helpful to responding officers and not make a big fuss about things if/when they are stopped.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but the impression I am getting from your original post is that you do not have a problem with these types of open carriers but just those who ARE doing it as some kind of a statement.

    I am not against open carry. I have open carried on occasions and have been tempted to do it again on several more occasions.. primarily, however, I conceal.. more for my own comfort than anyone elses.

    And while I support the right of individuals to open carry I DO have a problem with the OCers who seem to be doing it just to cause trouble, are super confrontational and snippy throwing attitude all over the place. I agree that those are the people who very well may be ruining it for other OCers in CA.

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    Member Array CaptSmith's Avatar
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    gonna be interesting to see how with no open carry, Conceal carry is treated when some-one see's a gun that is concealed, legally...gonna call legal CCW "discovered or exposed " branishing or openly "displaying" or carrying a weapon ?? sorry you be in da rat race JTG..and greeting's and best wishes and welcome..posted from the mouse race...

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Welcome to both of the new guys, from Delaware! I personally cc, as I want it to be my choice to let someone know that I'm armed, and at what point I will do so.
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    New Member Array jtg's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. Its good to be here. As I am a resident of California, I can only speak to my perceptions from this state. What may pass as "no big thing" in Az or other states, may be a big deal in Ca. It is very unusual for most folks to see a exposed firearm in public and I think that the "freak out" factor is higher because of our messed up gun laws. I would hazard a guess that that strapping on your exposed handgun and walking down mainstreet Prescott Az or humble Tx, you will experience a most distinct diffrence in attitudes by the public and unfortunatrely, the police than if you did the same in Downtown LA or New York. So, my original comment was reflective of California, no other states. I just hate to see more of our rights taken from us by well meaning but misdirected confrontational folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtg View Post
    Thanks guys. Its good to be here. As I am a resident of California, I can only speak to my perceptions from this state. What may pass as "no big thing" in Az or other states, may be a big deal in Ca. It is very unusual for most folks to see a exposed firearm in public and I think that the "freak out" factor is higher because of our messed up gun laws. I would hazard a guess that that strapping on your exposed handgun and walking down mainstreet Prescott Az or humble Tx, you will experience a most distinct diffrence in attitudes by the public and unfortunatrely, the police than if you did the same in Downtown LA or New York. So, my original comment was reflective of California, no other states. I just hate to see more of our rights taken from us by well meaning but misdirected confrontational folks.
    Do you really believe that the CA Leg. would not have moved to ban OC of unloaded guns anyway? Seriously? CA leg folk believe one thing, guns should not be in the hands of anyone other than police and military and have shown a willingness to do everything they can to make that a reality. So, please, if you are going to blame someone, blame the leftists in the leg and the police who make a big deal when confronting people OC'ing. The police are just as much to blame, if not more, than the OC'ers. Ask yourself how many criminals you have encountered OC'ing in your 10 years of being an officer? I would guess zero. I wonder why...
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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtg View Post
    Thanks guys. Its good to be here. As I am a resident of California, I can only speak to my perceptions from this state. What may pass as "no big thing" in Az or other states, may be a big deal in Ca. It is very unusual for most folks to see a exposed firearm in public and I think that the "freak out" factor is higher because of our messed up gun laws. I would hazard a guess that that strapping on your exposed handgun and walking down mainstreet Prescott Az or humble Tx, you will experience a most distinct diffrence in attitudes by the public and unfortunatrely, the police than if you did the same in Downtown LA or New York. So, my original comment was reflective of California, no other states. I just hate to see more of our rights taken from us by well meaning but misdirected confrontational folks.
    I will agree with the portion that I highlighted. If these people had not chosen to exercise their rights there would have been no need to take those rights away.

    Michael
    Last edited by mlr1m; September 27th, 2011 at 01:06 AM. Reason: I made an oopsie

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtg View Post
    I would hazard a guess that that strapping on your exposed handgun and walking down mainstreet Prescott Az or humble Tx, you will experience a most distinct diffrence in attitudes by the public and unfortunatrely, the police than if you did the same in Downtown LA or New York.
    Yeah, in CA you might be harassed but as long as it's unloaded or your not in the city you would be legal. In TX you'd be arrested since OC is illegal. Go figure. My opinion is that if the legislature bans OC it will open the door for a successful lawsuit to bring shall issue CC to CA. The judicial branch and legislative branch are getting ready to set up an unconstitutional conflict on carrying firearms in CA. The CASC ruled recently that they did not need shall issue CC because they could OC. When the legislature takes that away there will immediately be another lawsuit. Just watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I will agree with the portion that I highlighted. If these people had not chosen to exercise their rights there would have been no need to take those rights away.

    Michael
    Then where are the rights? Unexcercised rights are just rights that are voluntarily surrendered. What good is the right to carry on paper if you can't carry in practice? I'm not sure that they lost much. And as I posted above, I think they have a lot to gain when the dust settles. It's not the followers that cause change.
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    First welcome to the new members hope you enjoy your time here.

    Quote Originally Posted by moby clarke View Post
    Do you really believe that the CA Leg. would not have moved to ban OC of unloaded guns anyway? Seriously? CA leg folk believe one thing, guns should not be in the hands of anyone other than police and military and have shown a willingness to do everything they can to make that a reality. So, please, if you are going to blame someone, blame the leftists in the leg and the police who make a big deal when confronting people OC'ing. The police are just as much to blame, if not more, than the OC'ers. Ask yourself how many criminals you have encountered OC'ing in your 10 years of being an officer? I would guess zero. I wonder why...
    Wow I guess there always has to be that one person. Please enlighten with your experiences as a LEO and also your experiences in the laws and legaslative process in the State of California? Please explain how many SD situations you have been in or criminals you have encountered in your lifetime? Until you have walked in the OP's shoes or anyone else's for that matter you better be able to back up your comments with some fact.

    The OP gave a humble and honest opinion on something from the state that he lives and works making a living at wearing a firearm on a daily basis. The mere fact that a person is OC'ing does not make them a criminal BUT on the same token just because they are OC'ing does not mean they are not a criminal either. Please explain how LE is to blame for the decisions of state government? They enforce the laws that are written and respond to the calls that are dispatched.

    I have seen dozens of videos by residents of the state of California who are OC'ing just to get attention. They carry cheap handguns in case they are confiscated so as I was told on here "So they don't lose much". There are dozens of other videos posted of person with rifles, shotguns and everything else at restaurants, driving down the street and other places and then they just wait for someone to call it in so they can videotape it for youtube. Do you not think the government officials see this mess? The OC'ers themselves in interviews say themselves "We are doing this to educate the public" by carrying an AR at the salad bar at the local steak house?

    Michigan is one of the worst states for this. It is so bad the Michigan OC has put out a public statement that even though they promote OC rights even these guys are over the top and they distance themselves from them. So before you cast blame on others you need to look at the needless assinine stunts others are pulling. They wanted attention, they got it and it is no one else's fault but their own if their rights are taken away. I am just sorry it will affect so many others who do the right thing.
    Last edited by JD; September 29th, 2011 at 09:32 AM.
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