A Fool Killed First?
This is a discussion on A Fool Killed First? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockrocker
To your first ?,yes thats what i'm saying,"a bunch of"will wear o.c simply because they can and think they are King ...
November 9th, 2011 12:38 PM
I have to admit that I'm having a hard time following your post, it's most likely because my eyes are acting up on me so if I miss a point my apologies. I see the same folks at the range that you do, and some of them make me cringe as well. You seem to be saying (this is where I could be off-base) that these yahoos would be better off CCing than OCing because the likelihood is greater that they'll have their gun taken from them than it is that it will be a deterrent. My point is, there's a certain segment of the population, not limited to the OC clan who are going to wear crappy (or no) holsters, fail to train, and give up their weapon at the first sign of trouble regardless of their method of carry. When I OC, I don't "try" to attract attention to myself, I carry discretely in well fitting and (I think), attractive leather gear and clothing that I hope portrays me as a competent and serious (not mall cop serious...I don't walk around with my hand on the butt of my gun...haha) individual. It's my belief that displaying those traits will generally bring about the desired deterrent effect to the typical BG that I may encounter, and simultaneously portray OC'ers in a positive light.
Originally Posted by glockrocker
My apologies for taking personal offense at your previous post, I just wanted you to know that there are OC'ers who take every bit as much pride in how they're percieved by the public as CC'ers do....and honestly, I wonder how many of those "Range Rambos" would even strap their gun on if they weren't at a shooting range? I just have a feeling about this...but I don't think it's too many...
Never pick a fight with an old man...If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you - John Steinbeck
Come to Colorado...the governor is loopy
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November 9th, 2011 12:44 PM
This is an interesting topic. I can see both sides and there are good arguments for both.
Based on my back ground and exp, I agree with SAMF, however I think this applies a lot to terrorist and criminals that are not part of a gang, For example MS-13 or the pack mentality of a violent street gang that constantly thinks they have to shoot somebody because they were "disrespected" to keep their image up or some other bull reason and dont forget about those BG that just wanna see the world burn.
the typical risk vs reward is common and I am willing to bet the number of incidents prevented by being what we refer to as a HARD target is way more then reported, think about it...how many criminals will come out and say "i was gonna rob that guy but he had a gun" that would just be stupid. So yes, I think that open carry makes you more of a HARD target and a BG looking for quick cash will be less likely to confront you.
I also train in MMA/Boxing and some of the Boxers I work with are younger adults/teens who use boxing as a way to get off the streets, during one of our conversations the comment was made to me that if a THUG were to approach me he would be armed because I "look" like a hard target( I am 6ft 260lbs, pretty solid guy, not 6 pack but no gut either) because of this "inside" knowledge, I am aware that if some one does approach me he will have something (trust me, he will not wanna go H2H) and in my case having an open carry would just give the BG INTEL on where to focus his attention to attempt to disarm me, so based on my situation I choose to carry concealed in order to have the element of suprise if an incident were to take place. (side benifit is I dont have to deal with any hassle associated with Open carry)
to quote the movie Gladiator(the boxing one not the crowe one) "make them think you are weak when you are really strong, make them think you are strong when you are really weak" to sum that up..a smaller guy with a gun (you know that you might get shot), or a big guy with out a gun (that you can control with a knife or gun), if you were the BG which one would you approach?
Or take option 3...Carry a fullsize auto in a shoulder holster open, and a back up concealed. one to find and one to keep. I use to tell my soldiers this..at any point in time I have 2-4 knives on me(this was in Afghanistan) let somebody attack me, they are lible to find 1 or all four of them...in their ribs, gut, neck..ect..LOL
November 9th, 2011 01:32 PM
That's exactly how i meant to sayit Dadsnugun,no need for any apology,this is a very interesting topic,and enjoy conversating and hearing other peoples veiws.
Originally Posted by Dadsnugun
November 9th, 2011 01:42 PM
Yes, in a shootout, fools are often killed first. When it happens, I hope I at least have my gun out of its holster and at that point it doesn't matter if it was CC or OC.
"Just blame Sixto"
I reserve the right to make fun, point and laugh etc.
November 9th, 2011 01:56 PM
I open carry. I concealed carry. I see "element of surprise" as an offensive tactic not a defensive one. That is why criminals carry that way...to surprise you!
No one has ever been "Targeted first".
Thinking back to all the forums I have frequented, the members that most object to or "call fools" to Open Carry folks are LEO.
This is the "Open Carry" portion of the forum not the "bash open carry by cc'ers and leo" part of the forum.
November 9th, 2011 02:05 PM
I agree with everything in the OP's well thought-out & well written article; save one small comment.
I'm a capitalist small business owner and I'm willing to work hard & make an honest living for my family by offering legal goods and/or services to the marketplace in exchange for some form of legal tender.
Criminals are simple capitalists
I think "criminals" are the antithesis of capitalist.
Most criminals offer little to NO "legal" marketable goods or services and they only TAKE away from others that have earned "something". (Sound familiar? That's definitely, NOT what capitalism is all about!)
"Most" criminals are nothing more than lazy thugs & thieves. Though, I have personally seen criminal organizations ran as capitalist entities, the street level criminal that are most likely to be encountered by the CC/OCer are NOT worthy of being called capitalist.
November 9th, 2011 03:30 PM
Another point I disagree with is the credit given to criminals for being smart. They are stupid, and that is what makes them dangerous. They live in an existence of mouth to hand, I see, I want, so therefore I take. They put no real thought into their actions, as most of the crimes they commit are inpulsive in nature. If they could be counted on to make a logical decision based on the reward/consquences idea, they would not be in jail most of the time.
Why do you think many LEOs do not think OC is a good idea? Well, this is gonna hurt a few feelings, but Im gonna say it. Because unlike the guy or gal who watch the 6 oclock news and scour every newspaper article for criminal activity and then put that gun on, ( whether it be OC or CC), and walk around thinking they know something because of something they read, or see on TV, we deal with them everyday, hands on, sit in on the interrogations as they spill their stupid guts, after they have told lie after lie in a futile attempt to " beat the case ", only to end up screwing themselves.
When they attack an LE, who they know is armed, do you really think they will not attack you just because of OC?
" Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight"
November 9th, 2011 04:00 PM
I'm not sure why an OC'er would be scanning the paper for criminal activity. Also not sure why an LEO would have have to "deal with them everyday.." as oc is a legal activity and certainly not deserving of and interogation to sit in on. Lie after Lie? Give me a break! The only lies perpetuated are the ones given to violate the rights of a law abiding citizen.
An attack on an LEO by a criminal is a diferent situation. You are not generally just targeted, more like recieving viloence due to an escape attempt or the like.
Once again, please cite where this happens to legal open carriers.
November 9th, 2011 04:01 PM
I just wished we could open carry in Texas, at least I would have the option.
NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
nor the arrow for its swiftness,
nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend.
November 9th, 2011 04:10 PM
With due respect, you are asking for anecdotal evidence, of which there is plenty (unless you honestly think an OC'er has never been attacked). I could post a recent link to where some young thugs were hanging out and attacking everything that walked by (including the LEO's that arrived on scene), but I'm not because anecdotal evidence proves nothing (and it's becoming monotonously boring).
Originally Posted by carracer
If you want to OC, more power to you. But please don't think that attacks don't happen on legal open carriers.
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November 9th, 2011 04:32 PM
Yes, please cite that anecdotal evidence, with links to newspaper, police reports etc. Should be easy to find since there is plenty of it!
Originally Posted by WHEC724
November 9th, 2011 04:42 PM
Once again we step off into the abyss. I am not opposed to OC as long as you have the skillset to go with it.
To the OP a couple of questions. First are you the author of the statements you posted if not who is? Secondly if you are not the author what is your personal experience and training in regards to this matter? I eaten with, shot with, and trained with members of the USSF on a number of occasions and not once have I ever in all my years heard one of them refer to themselves as a wolf, sheepdog or most esspecially a Green Beret. A Green Beret is a hat not a man, but anyways. Not doubting your post just wondering who this person is.
I think this makes a better story; A couple years ago an officer spotted a couple suspicious individuals in a car behind a Waffle House. They later admitted that they had intended to rob the restaurant but had seen a couple armed citizens inside and were waiting for them to leave when the officer found them
The waffle house story has been beaten to death in regards to deterring an armed robbery. Yes the BG's saw two men sitting in the restaurant armed. If I am not mistaken as the story goes several BG's armed with rifles were somewhat lacking in instestinal fortitude and would not enter the restaurant when they were caught. My reply as always is they must not have been much of a BG.
When several persons armed with rifles and the element of surprise are cast off by two men with handguns they need to choose a different profession. My major question is and has always been about the two guys sitting there. Did they ever know they were in danger before the Po Po got there or did they simply ride the wave of "if it wasn't for us"?
There will always be bad guys who at the mere sight of a firearm will go the other way. These are the same ones who put back the candy bar when the clerk eyes them from the counter or go the other direction when the patrol car comes around the corner. The fact remains that their is/are criminals who dont care about the fact you are armed and you have read the latest guns and ammo article and watched all the magpul videos these are the ones you have to worry about.
In my profession I have to look at things from the bad guys side and find ways to prevent that. So if I was going to commit a crime and found OCer's at the scene it would be a very simple matter of either they disarm or get a bullet in the head period.
The fact is that many, and this is OC and CC, do not have the SA or training to carry a firearm. You have a little more leadway when you CC because no one knows its there but when you OC you have to have your head and butt wired together and your SA better be through the roof.
Just as others have stated if a criminal will attack an openly armed police officer with there bare hands knowing they are armed with all sorts of things, have friends who are armed with all sorts of things and know they could/would be killed for doing it do you think they care if you are armed or not?
All it takes is one determined individual who decides he wants the shiny thing on your belt and you better be able to defend it physically from attack and have the skills to use it as intended before he gets it.
As I have stated before I do not have a problem with OC. I do have a problem with the guy who is wearing a the double cowboy rig or the AR slung across his back going into a restaurant so he can make a statement about OC not having the knowledge and skillset to go along with it and then records for posterity the police who were called by the manager to get him to leave because he is being harrassed.
Anyways just an opinion
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
November 9th, 2011 04:47 PM
Personally I believe that you should not have to show a reason or a need for doing something that does not harm others. We have let those who do not believe in individual rights establish the rules by trying to play their need game. Should I have to show a reason or a need before I am allowed to exercise my rights?
November 9th, 2011 04:48 PM
Other than the guy in WI?
Originally Posted by carracer
Robber takes gun from man wearing holster - JSOnline
There was at least one officer in Hartford, CT that was targeted for his gun. He was walking a "normal beat" and was literally sacked and relieved of his duty belt after being dealt a couple of good lumps. Sorry, don't have a link as I'm fairly certain the story was not relayed to the media...
November 9th, 2011 04:59 PM
This is where I normally start racking up the infractions.
Originally Posted by carracer
I wish you all the best in the comfort of knowing that the sight of your gun will keep the bad guys quaking in their boots.
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