A Fool Killed First?

This is a discussion on A Fool Killed First? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Im not going to right a novel here, but come on folks, do you really want to give up your "ace" in the hole....To many ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Im not going to right a novel here, but come on folks, do you really want to give up your "ace" in the hole....To many assumptions have been given to the good guy OCing and the Bad guy being scared because of the gun on GOOBERS hip....Im all for people carrying there guns, but the truth is, most do not have the training needed to carry it off, whether it be CC or OC....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Well there carracer, just scroll through the forums and see how many acts of crime posts there, if you don't believe people are concerned enough to follow this stuff.

    Sounds like you believe law enforcement is out to get people.
    Bet you wouldn't think the same way if I were interviewing someone suspected in a crime against you or your family.

    So just what is your job, or experience that forms your opinions?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #33
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Other than the guy in WI?

    Robber takes gun from man wearing holster - JSOnline

    There was at least one officer in Hartford, CT that was targeted for his gun. He was walking a "normal beat" and was literally sacked and relieved of his duty belt after being dealt a couple of good lumps. Sorry, don't have a link as I'm fairly certain the story was not relayed to the media...
    Very good! My point being it is NOT as common as people are led to believe. 1 cite of a robbery to an opencarry person among how many that carry for how many years?

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Oh, there are plenty more, someone posted them sometime ago.

    However, there are not that many people who OC compared to CC, and in the population in general. So looking for numbers in such a tiny segment of the population is non productive to the issue.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I can understand your point of view as far as normal street grade criminals,but when it comes to the Street gangs that are abundant throughout the USA nowadays,and gang initiations IMHO there are gangbangers that would love nothing better than to brag about how the walked up on a guy open carrying a gun and shot him, then stole his gun.The news is full of shootings where the intent had nothing to do with a robbery the intent was just to shoot people.
    wmhawth likes this.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    I will not discourage you from open carrying, but I will not open carry.

    I would rather retain the element of surprise and the ability to step back and not be a target... That decision is highly personal.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  8. #37
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Oh, there are plenty more, someone posted them sometime ago.

    However, there are not that many people who OC compared to CC, and in the population in general. So looking for numbers in such a tiny segment of the population is non productive to the issue.
    Perhaps you could point me to that thread. I would appreciate being enlightened and being able to pass along the information.

  9. #38
    Member Array PilotAlso's Avatar
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    I feel a need to post this question as every single thread on the OC area regresses to people (mostly the same ones) posting over and over about their personal dislike of OC.

    We get it. You don't care for OC.

    Many people don't like guns. Many more don't like concealed carry. How unreadable would this forum be if those people kept posting their dislike of guns/CC in every thread?

    Ask a question regarding what CC holster is best, get answers regarding how CC is for fools and only those with advanced training should even consider it. Kind of like when someone asks about a 1911 purchase and somebody always posts about getting a Glock instead. :-).

    I hope people get my point. I don't OC and don't plan to. It's not for me but the decision should be mine. If asked, I'll give my reasons for not OC but I will not degrade those who OC, or force my opinions on others.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array Dadsnugun's Avatar
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    One thing that I notice about these types of threads, is they always seem to "evolve" into what everyone imagines the BG's, or the LEO's, or the AVGMOS (Average man On The Street) thinks or does when observing an OC. While those issues interest me and play a part in my philosophy, my main interest lies only in my reasons for OCing when I choose that method. First of all, I don't carry every time I go into town, that doesn't mean that I don't have a firearm "handy" as a general rule, only that I don't spend a great deal of time out wandering around where I feel like I need to be armed. I know that there are trade-offs with that attitude, I accept that. On the occasions that I do choose to carry in "civilization", I OC for very specific reasons. I am more comfortable, more confident and more effective when drawing from an OWB OC type setup than I am from a CC setup. It's a simple matter of maximizing my personal strengths and minimizing my weaknesses. That's it, everything else is moot for me, I give myself what I believe is my best chance to come out on top in a bad situation, other folks have different strengths and should play to them. Gunleather, poise, style of dress, alertness, attitude, and skill with my chosen style of carry all come together to present a package that will hopefully first deter any would-be BG (and it has to this point) or secondly, if needed, give me the best chance to emerge from a conflict victorious, with my skill set. Play to your strengths.
    Never pick a fight with an old man...If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you - John Steinbeck
    Come to Colorado...the governor is loopy
    .................................................. .................................................. ......................They Live

  11. #40
    Member Array SamF's Avatar
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    Tacman, all of your questions were answered in the OP. I suggest a more comprehensive read of it.

    I am seeing a lot of absolutes in this discussion and I intentionally wrote no absolutes into the article. I understand that there are some bad guys who will attack anything regardless of a targets strength but most of these are planned attacks against targets they knew were armed.

    My apologies if I offended anyone here by implying that criminals are honorable capitalists or strategic thinkers. I merely wanted to illustrate the instinctual nature to want to gain something with minimal risk or effort. It's a hard-wired instinct that most of us control due to a regard for others; the rest we call criminals.

    The above link to the OC guy who lost his gun is the first report I have seen after many years of searching. It would be much easier to identify these types of events than the crime deterred ones but we still see far more reports of crime deterred. Would anyone here argue that guns do not deter crime? I merely argue that they cannot deter crime unless others know that we have them. As previously stated in this thread, surprise is an offensive and not a defensive element. When providing a defense or security for myself, my loved ones, or those I may be hired to protect, I want everything I do to say, (in my best Obiwan voice,) "This is not the target you are looking for."

    Life is a game of odds. We take chances all the time and I prefer to stack the odds in my favor every time I do. OC is not an absolute deterrent but does decrease the odds of being a victim just like dress, demeanor, and situational awareness does.

  12. #41
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    SamF reread the original sentence all good with that part.

    You have not offended anyone here, at least me anyway, this discussion has been hashed, rehashed and hashed again. A person who OC's with the right attitude, SA and training most do not have a problem with it is simply another form of carry.

    Does it offer an increased tactical advantage? Who knows. Yep might be quicker to the draw but you will have to be because the BG has seen your weapon and you have no choice. Does it deter crime? Maybe for the wannabe criminal, not in any, way, shape, or form for even a semi hardened one. They have guns to and may have more willingness to use them than the average person.

    When you have the equipment, training, mindset and skillset to OC great but to do it to make a statement, cause hate and discontent, videotape reactions or my favorite "educate the public and LE" with not a single intent or knowledge to use the weapon in self defense that is when I get offended.
    wmhawth likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #42
    Member Array SamF's Avatar
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    Criminals don't come any harder than Jose Vigoa and he admitted to canceling a criminal activity when an unknown person walked by his objective with an exposed gun. Even if 25% of bad guys are what you would consider a hardened criminal that would attack me if when I'm armed, that still means I have removed myself as a target from 75% of the bad guys out there. From what I have seen, the number of hardened criminals is much less since reports of OC stopping crimes far outnumber the reports of OC citizens being targeted. I still spend countless hours on the range firing hundreds or thousands of rounds to prepare for the small chance that I encounter one of those hardened criminals.
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  14. #43
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamF View Post
    Criminals don't come any harder than Jose Vigoa and he admitted to canceling a criminal activity when an unknown person walked by his objective with an exposed gun. Even if 25% of bad guys are what you would consider a hardened criminal that would attack me if when I'm armed, that still means I have removed myself as a target from 75% of the bad guys out there. From what I have seen, the number of hardened criminals is much less since reports of OC stopping crimes far outnumber the reports of OC citizens being targeted. I still spend countless hours on the range firing hundreds or thousands of rounds to prepare for the small chance that I encounter one of those hardened criminals.
    I would be the first to take you up on the arguement that guns do not deter crime. It is the resolve of people that deter crime. You can spend all the time you want firing hundreds of thousands of rounds at the range, but if you do not have the resolve in you, you will still be a target.

    You see. what you are missing, is the fact, and its a fact, that criminals can sense who is easy and who is "hard", the same way the predatory animal can single out the weakest and slowest in the herd. The single animal in the herd may look like all the rest, but the predator knows the difference.

    Regardless of what you may think, there is an inherent evil in the hearts of some men, and common sense and idealistic secular based viewpoints cannot accept nor understand the driving force therein.

    The common sense approach in your essay was very readable, and well thought out, the problem is, thugs do not think or read, they just do.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  15. #44
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    Well Vigoa's strategy and thinking was that a security guard would not give up his life or challenge a robber for someone else's money and was proven wrong so he ended up killing two guards. Yes he was a professional criminal who was smart and trained. He did not want confrontation, he did not want to kill anyone. He had a singular goal in mind casinos, armored cars and other big money targets. At one point he even attempted a robbery at a mall to throw off police officers so it is not surprising that the presence of an armed person threw his plans off as it triggered a red flag in his operations and he aborted as a professional criminal would.

    You can hardly compare him to the average street thug, gang banger, meth head would will shoot you because he likes your shoes. There are professional criminals who plan bank heists, high end burglaries, bait and switch schemes for large amounts of money who avoid confrontation and violence like the plague and would not be caught dead within a mile of a weapon but do not confuse them with the professional criminal who is violent, has no remorse, will engage in violence for no other reason to engage in violence and is simply categorized as a professional criminal because he has done it so long and been arrested so many times. There is a big, big difference between the two.

    It is good that you continue to train and shoot as often as you do for that small chance but the majority do not. Many do not shoot at all after their initial CCW training so what makes you think they would train anymore if they OC? There are dozens of topics on this sight alone many with videos of persons OC'ing with an unloaded weapon, a long gun, handgun, and so on just to get the shock value of the public and a response from LE but have no earthly concept of weapons handling or weapons retention. They do it because they can and think it is cool.

    If a person, like yourself, who has the training, mindset and skillset to do it great the simple fact is many others who OC do not have it and are simply armed victims waiting to be preyed upon. I do not oppose OC. If it works for you great. I do oppose those who do it and lack the common sense that God gave a goose.
    glockman10mm likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  16. #45
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
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    Perhaps then all forms of carry should be illegal except for law enforcement and military?

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