A Fool Killed First?

This is a discussion on A Fool Killed First? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by carracer Perhaps then all forms of carry should be illegal except for law enforcement and military? Not sure what you mean, maybe ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    Perhaps then all forms of carry should be illegal except for law enforcement and military?
    Not sure what you mean, maybe just being coy? Or subversive, as I take it that this is in response to my post. But I'll bite.

    Too much focus is placed on the gun to save the day, and not enough on mindset and confidence. Victory is achieved by knowing and understanding your opponent, this is a concept that dates back to ancient days. Even in military operations, Intel through recon is of paramount importance. How does this relate to this topic?
    To read opinion and assume you understand the criminal mindset by what you hear others say or think is not good. You may think, that just because a criminal sees you sporting a weapon, that they will be afraid, that it will deter crime, and to a point you may be right.
    But I can tell you with confidence, and over 17 years of hands on dealings with all types of criminals, that some do not care. If one open carrys with this mindset, you are ignorring another part of the data, or intel, and setting yourself up to get your feelings hurt, if not worse.

    I am not a fan of open carry, but I do not condemn it either. Im just saying you had better not give in to preconcieved ideas and ignore what law enforcement experience on the matter is, or you may find yourself in a pickle.

    When that gun is displayed, it is in play. If, it creates a welcome challenge to someone out to prove something, there is no turning back, the game is on, and you had better be prepared to go the distance.
    wmhawth and Rock and Glock like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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  3. #47
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
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    Just seems to be a prevailing attitude amongst leo that the only ones qualified to carry are themselves or military. Training aquired by the general public is usually inadaquate, unless thousands of dalloars are spent to attend classes taught by former leo. Am I wrong?
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  4. #48
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    Just seems to be a prevailing attitude amongst leo that the only ones qualified to carry are themselves or military. Training aquired by the general public is usually inadaquate, unless thousands of dalloars are spent to attend classes taught by former leo. Am I wrong?
    Yes, you are wrong. Who have you been talking to? In case you havent noticed, there are many members of active LE on this forum that support the right of citizens to carry. And I might add, that the support of the rank and file LEO's around the country were apart of the movement to support CC laws around the nation.

    And that is not because we are so smart, it is because we experience first hand what is going on. The Association Of Police Chiefs do not speak for us.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    Just seems to be a prevailing attitude amongst leo that the only ones qualified to carry are themselves or military. Training aquired by the general public is usually inadaquate, unless thousands of dalloars are spent to attend classes taught by former leo. Am I wrong?
    Yes and no. The most commonly required classes for carry etc. ARE the bare minimum when it comes to training and a 4 or 8 hour class can not compete in terms of quality or skills learned in a longer, more elaborate and yes, more expensive class.

    The Pro-carry, pro-gun, regular shooters in a police dept. see this for what it is, along with us that are "civilians" that know better as well. It is not a negative view on carry from those in LE that are pro-carry, they would just like to see those carrying better training in the use of their weapons.


    Those in LE that are against carry, are against it regardless of what training you have.

  6. #50
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
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    Thank you! I frequent many forums and it seems the general attitude of leo is that Open Carriers are just a bunch of attention seeking dolts and rednecks. I agree that there are those that are that way, however, the vast majority are people that are non confrontational and keep their SA about them.

    Alot of attention is given to the ones (like myself) that carry recorders. Baiting? No. Remember that we are doing nothing illegal. Just carrying in a manner that is different than others. My recorder is there to protect myself from accusations and to back up my side of an encounter I hope never happens. I feel CC'ers would also benefit from this.

    So, why do we open carry? Maybe it is a comfort factor. Perhaps it's because a permit is not available in that area. Or, excersising my 2A rights to normalize carry. To let people know that not everyone bearing a sidearm is deranged or threatening. I tend to believe that those who opencarry are not criminals. I'm sure you can attest that most crooks don't open carry. I'm sure you'vve heard the statement that a right unused is a right lost. I believe that to be true.

    I do carry concealed as well as open. Personally I don't object to the permit basis for concealed, although many do. I like the fact that I have been background checked and can verify that. I am torn over the issue of constitutional carry. I would not object, but, would like the option for the carry card also.

    As stated previously by others, we all, cc and oc, need to keep our wits about us and not be stupid. As open carriers we have an "Unwritten Code" not to fiddle with our sidearms while carrying and to be on our best behavior. Most do this. A few don't. Just like the cc'ers that play with the carry piece while sitting on the john and have the negligent discharge. We have to "police" ourselves to keep the general public from seeing only the dolts. Make a good impression with them.

    Our goals are the same, defense of ourselves and family and others when possible. We shall respect each others methods of carry and work to promote the 2nd Amendment and the right to carry for all legally allowed to. Work to change restrictions where they are infringing.

    Thank you again!

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamF View Post
    I think this makes a better story; A couple years ago an officer spotted a couple suspicious individuals in a car behind a Waffle House. They later admitted that they had intended to rob the restaurant but had seen a couple armed citizens inside and were waiting for them to leave when the officer found them.
    This was in Kenesaw GA.

    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    I open carry. I concealed carry. I see "element of surprise" as an offensive tactic not a defensive one. That is why criminals carry that way...to surprise you!

    No one has ever been "Targeted first".

    Thinking back to all the forums I have frequented, the members that most object to or "call fools" to Open Carry folks are LEO.

    This is the "Open Carry" portion of the forum not the "bash open carry by cc'ers and leo" part of the forum.
    Amen. Why must every single thread degenerate into the same people ragging on those of us who do OC? You may as well go ahead and go all the way over to the anti-gun side as you are already arguing their case to strip part of our right away from us.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Another point I disagree with is the credit given to criminals for being smart. They are stupid, and that is what makes them dangerous. They live in an existence of mouth to hand, I see, I want, so therefore I take. They put no real thought into their actions, as most of the crimes they commit are inpulsive in nature. If they could be counted on to make a logical decision based on the reward/consquences idea, they would not be in jail most of the time.

    Why do you think many LEOs do not think OC is a good idea? Well, this is gonna hurt a few feelings, but Im gonna say it. Because unlike the guy or gal who watch the 6 oclock news and scour every newspaper article for criminal activity and then put that gun on, ( whether it be OC or CC), and walk around thinking they know something because of something they read, or see on TV, we deal with them everyday, hands on, sit in on the interrogations as they spill their stupid guts, after they have told lie after lie in a futile attempt to " beat the case ", only to end up screwing themselves.
    When they attack an LE, who they know is armed, do you really think they will not attack you just because of OC?
    Not true. Your lowly street criminal, or crack head may be stupid. But they are fairly easy to see coming from a long way off. being from Memphis and working in TV I have had the chance to talk with quite a few gang members in controlled settings. (with them behind bars) And some things I have asked them are these:
    1. Would you commit a robbery of a store if you saw someone inside with a gun openly on their hip. Every gang member answered "No." Most elaborated and said that they wouldn't do so because of several reasons but one that came up repeatedly is, they didn't want to get shot. They prefer unarmed and docile targets, not anyone who even appears that they can fight back with equal force.

    2. Have you ever been able to spot someone who was carrying a concealed handgun. Most answered that they spotted them all the time. Mostly because the people who carry concealed seem to think that they are doing a good job of hiding it and they aren't. Your typical gang member is very adept at spotting concealed carriers. Gangs are not populated with all morons. They are a large well organized enterprise in most cases. One gang in Memphis even sent several of their members who had no felony records to college to get criminal justice degrees specifically so they could get hired by the Memphis Police Department, and it worked. Several of them ended up on the old Gang task force where they tipped their gang (Vice Lords if I remember correctly) off every time they were about to bust one of their operations.

    There are a lot of very smart and very well organized criminals out there and underestimating them will be to your detriment every time.
    SamF, tcox4freedom, jag06 and 2 others like this.
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  8. #52
    Member Array oneeyedwilly's Avatar
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    It doesnt matter either way. If the OC guy heads off the potential crime showing his gun, thats good. If he gets shot first, oh well, keeps me alive that much longer.

  9. #53
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    It doesnt matter either way. If the OC guy heads off the potential crime showing his gun, thats good. If he gets shot first, oh well, keeps me alive that much longer.

    LOL you know this makes a lot of sense. If you are there and something happens yell and point "He's got a gun, he's got a gun". That should give you either enough time to draw or leave.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #54
    Member Array Dumbledork's Avatar
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    I'd like for one of the people who claim that people who open carry will more likely be shot first to provide some sort of soumentation, like a police report, news article, or something, rather than just baseless, asinine conjecture and hyperbole.

    Oh, wait...they can't.

  11. #55
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    Well again you are right I or anyone else does as far as I know have any flip charts, graphs, news articles or other evidence of the person OC'ing being shot first.

    So I guess that it is just baseless, asinine conjecture and hyperbole that a bad guy with a gun enters somewhere that a person sits with his weapon concealed in a non threatening manner and pays him no attention because he is to busy looking, yelling at, or shooting the guy with the gun clearly visible on his hip. I guess the bad guy could be myoptic or color blind or plain just not notice.

    I hope there never is an actual event where this happens. First of all it would be tragic for those involved and secondly it would end this type of debate forever. All that is being said is that if two people are in the same place at the same time, one is carrying concealed and one is carrying openly there is a good chance, now just guessing here, that the guy with the gun visible would/could be the first target.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Well again you are right I or anyone else does as far as I know have any flip charts, graphs, news articles or other evidence of the person OC'ing being shot first.

    So I guess that it is just baseless, asinine conjecture and hyperbole that a bad guy with a gun enters somewhere that a person sits with his weapon concealed in a non threatening manner and pays him no attention because he is to busy looking, yelling at, or shooting the guy with the gun clearly visible on his hip. I guess the bad guy could be myoptic or color blind or plain just not notice.

    I hope there never is an actual event where this happens. First of all it would be tragic for those involved and secondly it would end this type of debate forever. All that is being said is that if two people are in the same place at the same time, one is carrying concealed and one is carrying openly there is a good chance, now just guessing here, that the guy with the gun visible would/could be the first target.
    Kinda like the armed security gaurds at banks...They are not LEOs, but when an armed robbery takes place, they seem to be the first ones taken out.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  13. #57
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    Good point. Lord knows they may not be a threat to anyone, but the appearance is there and appearance is everything.

    This is also a good example of the everyday criminal and the other kind.

    The average bank guard who is armed, not many around these days, deters through a show of force both physical presence and the fact he is openly carrying a firearm. This alone may/will deter the average "target of opprotunity" criminal from robbing the bank.

    Now the other kind of bad guy who does not care about the armed guard who plans and takes this guard into account. He walks in and either challenges the guard to disarm or simply shoots him in the head. This type criminal is the one you have to worry about, he is not impressed nor intimidated by physical presence or the carrying of a firearm.

    Again hope it never happens and the fact that you OC is a factor in preventing a crime from ever being committed. Just saying I hope you get the guy who is put off by the fact you are armed and not the kind who does not care that you are armed. Could make all the difference in the world.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Another point I disagree with is the credit given to criminals for being smart. They are stupid, and that is what makes them dangerous. They live in an existence of mouth to hand, I see, I want, so therefore I take. They put no real thought into their actions, as most of the crimes they commit are inpulsive in nature. If they could be counted on to make a logical decision based on the reward/consquences idea, they would not be in jail most of the time.

    Why do you think many LEOs do not think OC is a good idea? Well, this is gonna hurt a few feelings, but Im gonna say it. Because unlike the guy or gal who watch the 6 oclock news and scour every newspaper article for criminal activity and then put that gun on, ( whether it be OC or CC), and walk around thinking they know something because of something they read, or see on TV, we deal with them everyday, hands on, sit in on the interrogations as they spill their stupid guts, after they have told lie after lie in a futile attempt to " beat the case ", only to end up screwing themselves.
    When they attack an LE, who they know is armed, do you really think they will not attack you just because of OC?
    With all due respect my friend... You havent got a clue to how real criminals think.
    NYCrulesU and Dumbledork like this.

  15. #59
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    The armed guard is an entirely different element. As you mentioned the criminal PLANS to eliminate a KNOWN threat. The advantage of the OC citizen is that he is the unknown element that the BG cannot plan for. You want surprise in a defensive situation? Here it is; BG walks into a bank and plans to eliminate the one armed guard then he finds 2 guns but only a plan to eliminate one. Does he risk getting shot by #2 or does he walk away?

  16. #60
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    I say to each their own and leave it at that.

    I don't need to play super hero on youtube, make witty quips or quote crap from gun books, military generals or movies. I'll just happily and quietly put in my range time, keep myself prepared and live life the best I can. Always hoping for the best while being prepared for the worst.


    Too many Tex Grebners around here.
    SIXTO and Majorlk like this.

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