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Question About Open Carry You Tube

8K views 102 replies 32 participants last post by  Dumbledork 
#1 ·
I'm watching You tube and feel compelled to ask, why do some OC people want to be stopped and checked and give police a hard time? it just makes me sick that they are intentionally pushing the boundaries. Am I missing something here?
 
#4 ·
All I can say is that they are exercising a right that has been lost for the most part. Yes they are rude in some cases, but so are some of the LEOs. They are making a statement for the right to OC. Like it or not, the are fighting for all of us, together we stand, together we fall. It's like the so called "assault weapons", some gun owners still don't like them and want them outlawed, but if we don't fight, the Government will come for their hunting guns someday.
 
#18 ·
An equally compelling argument can be made that they are making it tougher for all of us. The general public tends to be uncomfortable at the sight of openly-armed citizens, and become even more so when encounters become assertive or confrontational. When people do things which call attention to themselves, expect others to pay attention.
 
#5 ·
You have to realize that most of those that do it to be confrontational don't care about anything but their few seconds of fame on the internet. OC'ing is just their avenue to get there. If it weren't OC'ing they would find some other was to start a confrontation.

You should also remember, the ones that OC looking for a confrontation are probably less that 1% of the total OC'er. The largest majority just want to go about their business and be left alone.
 
#7 ·
There are some places in the USA where OC is completely legal, even without a license. I can think of NE Ohio where the police harass their law abiding citizens merely because they are exercising their right to OC. A freedom not exercised is a freedom lost. The OC community is exercising their right and will more/less "jam-it" down the LEO's throat until they get the proverbial "picture."

I applaud those people who take a stand!

I myself, lack the mouth and the quick wittiness it takes to be able to do it. Therefore I just give money and support.
 
#8 ·
I don't know. I OC mostly during the warmer months. But I'm not out to get stopped and give local LEOs a hard time.

However, it has been pointed out to me, by various other members of Michigan Open Carry (past and present) that if I'm stopped for OCing, and ONLY for OCing, I am under no obligation to show any identification. I can tell the officer my name, and that should be enough for him/her. IF I "cooperate more" and either show ID, or give more info that can aid them in figuring out who I am, I'm just giving in to the "sheep mentality" that what ever the LEOs want, we should give them.

From my point of view, it depends on how much time I have to waste while they try to cajole more info out of me. If I'm in a hurry, as in I need to be somewhere, not where the cops have me stopped, then I might go ahead and show ID. If I've got no place to be, then I might drag it out as long as I can, until they figure out I'm not surrendering my Constitutional rights.

Now, having said all that, I can tell you all, I've never been stopped by the police for OCing. And there are plenty that have seen me OCing in Lansing and other areas of Michigan. So far, the ONLY time I've been stopped was usually a traffic stop. And, because Michigan laws says I must, I always hand over my driving license, registration, proof of insurance, and my Concealed Pistol License. So far, even though I probably deserved a ticket, I've not had one issued to me. Every time, the officers told me to slow down, get my head light fixed, or whatever applied to the reason they stopped me. My personal opinion, I think they did that because I have a CPL. But I could be wrong.
 
#13 ·
Maybe because OCing does not equal doing something illegal (in such states where OCing is already legal)...and a permit is not required to OC (like VA), thus, you are not required to show ID.
 
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#11 ·
What makes you think they want to be stopped? What is your definition of pushing the boundaries?
If it is legal to openly carry a firearm how is doing so pushing any boundaries? Why are the police stopping them if they are breaking no laws?

EDIT: If I am not breaking the law but I am constantly being stopped and questioned who is giving who a hard time exactly?

Michael
 
#26 ·
I'll be honest, I like open carry and do it when I feel like it.

However, if I knew I lived in an area that it would cause me grief, legal or not, I'd probably not do it simply because I don't have the desire to deal with the consequences. I'm married and a father of three small kids, my time is better spent hanging out with them than dealing with problems for doing something I knew I'd probably get grief for.

I guess I'm fortunate that it's not that way, because I do enjoy the freedom of choice.
 
#27 ·
I'll be honest, I like open carry and do it when I feel like it.

However, if I knew I lived in an area that it would cause me grief, legal or not, I'd probably not do it simply because I don't have the desire to deal with the consequences. I'm married and a father of three small kids, my time is better spent hanging out with them than dealing with problems for doing something I knew I'd probably get grief for.

I guess I'm fortunate that it's not that way, because I do enjoy the freedom of choice.
In a perfect world the Government would obey the law and there would be no consequences.

Michael
 
#29 ·
If I were in a place where OC was legal, but I knew that I might get hassled, I would choose to avoid the situation and CC.
It's not that difficult of a choice.
Saying that, I might also note that it is important to know what one's legal rights ARE and how to defend them, but why choose the hassle route?

As in all walks of life, there are constantly individuals who wish to push the boundaries...I choose the easier path of non-confrontation, up to a point.
 
#35 ·
This thread illustrates that we are divided within our own community of firearms enthusiasts and personal protection proponents. We really are our own worst enemy. Some of the hyperbole in this thread is disgusting to read as it's the same practice used by those in the anti-gun movement.

There is no difference between a Brady Campaign member calling you "Rambo" for wanting to carry a firearm for protection, as compared to some of the members of this forum using terms such as "attention whore" or similar when referring to an open carrier.

I'm sure it's a hard pill to swallow, however what it boils down to is an individual is doing something that you're not particularly comfortable with for whatever reason, and so you deride that person by making them out to be some extremist loony tune. That is anti-gun playbook 101.
 
#49 ·
Well said and 100% accurate.

I used to feel much like the original poster and the others who feel that way. I've developed and come to really understand the issue, and I've done it the hard way. Let me share a bit.

I've always been very pro 2A and had my concealed. But I am also in the sports bar business and years ago prevented open carry in my businesses. This was really to appease employee's comfort level. Well, I became the target of the VCDL here in Virginia in July 2006 with an email campaign....now I'm a member! Their tactics were pretty heavy handed and their many members very confrontational without interest in anything except yelling their point. MANY were great correspondences with some educational back & forth between myself and them. I received northwards of 300 emails at a time in my life I wanted nothing more than to tell them to go F themselves, I had just lost my 7 year old son in a drowning accident the month before. Back in 2006-2007 I believe there was a much more forceful effort by VCDL against businesses banning OC which backfired on them sometimes. I find the organization much more inclined to work hard to educate a business now before pushing harder.

Why do I go through all that background? Because I think most people go through the same education process I went through. At first you see the OC groups & individuals as confrontational, looking for trouble, and harmful to the the 2A supporters. Then if you really look at it, you realize that without persons fighting for your rights and pushing against illegal restrictions those rights go away. It is not my way nor will I ever be the person who is disrespectful to law enforcement but the fact is if you are being wrongly stopped, illegally detained, asked for information and ID's in a manner that pretends you do not have an option to provide them, then those tactics are no more right than the tactics of the OC groups who are really ensuring all our rights remain intact.

While I do not believe the civil rights movement is the same as the OC and 2A movement (some will disagree with good cause since a right is a right) the actions are parallel. There are rights being restricted by law enforcement through questionable actions and there are activists doing nothing more than exercising their rights and pushing against wrongly exercised authority. I appreciate most of what the OC crowd does, even it it is not the way I would personally go about it.

That's My 2c !
My friend, first may I say that I am sorry to hear about the loss of your child. My wife and I lost a child in 2000, so i know your pain and i completely understand what you went through. It's horrible.

next I'd like to say what a great story yours is that you were once a target of the VCDL and are now a member. Your explanation of your journey from where you were to where you are now on OC is a good one and i appreciate you sharing it with us.

And many got beaten, arrested, jailed, lynched and murdered in the process. They were fighting for rights they did not have. We already have the right to carry. Do public displays of firearms enhance that right, or jeopardize it?
Enhance, without question.

I am not sure I agree, I believe CC and OC are rights, but rights can be regulated. I have the right to vote, however, the govenrment does impose regulations on the exercise of that right.
You do not need to beg the government for a permit to vote.
 
#36 ·
Maybe a little off topic...

I haven't tried to find any further info on this but...Has anyone heard the final out come of the situation in TN(I think it was TN) The town which had the 100+year old law on the books(thereby avoiding state preemption) which made carrying a Navy Revolver in the hand the only legal way to carry a gun? A young man who was labeled a troublemaker was arrested for carrying a Navy Revolver in his hand. Again, he was not only not breaking any law, he was scrupulously following the law.
 
#38 · (Edited)
I wonder. Was I flaunting my rights when I tell my elected Representatives how I feel about issues? Was I flaunting my rights when I refused to allow my car to be searched? When I voted?
Just curious.

EDIT: My father was a cop until he retired in the late sixties. He had a term for folks that demanded or flaunted their rights. He called them upity. Seems time does not change everything.

Michael
 
#39 ·
I wonder. Was I flaunting my rights when I tell my elected Representatives how I feel about issues? Was I flaunting my rights when I refused to allow my car to be searched? When I voted?
Just curious.

EDIT: My father was a cop until he retired in the late sixties. He had a term for folks that demanded or flaunted their rights. He called them upity. Seems time does not change everything.

Michael
Uppity for demanding rights??? I think I need to change my name. Call me MajorUppity.

Personally, your dad's attitude is typical of the folks who think rights are really privileges handed down from the Lord of the Manor to his serfs. Nanny State mentality.
 
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#40 ·
I used to feel much like the original poster and the others who feel that way. I've developed and come to really understand the issue, and I've done it the hard way. Let me share a bit.

I've always been very pro 2A and had my concealed. But I am also in the sports bar business and years ago prevented open carry in my businesses. This was really to appease employee's comfort level. Well, I became the target of the VCDL here in Virginia in July 2006 with an email campaign....now I'm a member! Their tactics were pretty heavy handed and their many members very confrontational without interest in anything except yelling their point. MANY were great correspondences with some educational back & forth between myself and them. I received northwards of 300 emails at a time in my life I wanted nothing more than to tell them to go F themselves, I had just lost my 7 year old son in a drowning accident the month before. Back in 2006-2007 I believe there was a much more forceful effort by VCDL against businesses banning OC which backfired on them sometimes. I find the organization much more inclined to work hard to educate a business now before pushing harder.

Why do I go through all that background? Because I think most people go through the same education process I went through. At first you see the OC groups & individuals as confrontational, looking for trouble, and harmful to the the 2A supporters. Then if you really look at it, you realize that without persons fighting for your rights and pushing against illegal restrictions those rights go away. It is not my way nor will I ever be the person who is disrespectful to law enforcement but the fact is if you are being wrongly stopped, illegally detained, asked for information and ID's in a manner that pretends you do not have an option to provide them, then those tactics are no more right than the tactics of the OC groups who are really ensuring all our rights remain intact.

While I do not believe the civil rights movement is the same as the OC and 2A movement (some will disagree with good cause since a right is a right) the actions are parallel. There are rights being restricted by law enforcement through questionable actions and there are activists doing nothing more than exercising their rights and pushing against wrongly exercised authority. I appreciate most of what the OC crowd does, even it it is not the way I would personally go about it.

That's My 2c !
 
#46 ·
Michigan Open Carry Does way more good then harm in the "2A" world of gun rights. if You don't believe it then fine, but look up news articles of how many city policies that were against CC or OC, we got them in line with state law so everyone could legally carry.

We are all on the same team here guys. And if i carry around a video camera so I don't get throw in jail. cops word vs. my word in court. I'm backed up this way. I don't go looking for trouble, just go about my daily tasks. If a cop wants to harass me, then on goes the video camera, hold everyone accountable.

If I chose to put it on youtube for others to learn what to do or not to do, that is my choice. (p.s. I have never had to video anything just saying if i did I could.)
 
#48 ·
If you're talking about CC, that's not a right, it's a privilege. If you don't need a license for it, it's a right.
I am not sure I agree, I believe CC and OC are rights, but rights can be regulated. I have the right to vote, however, the govenrment does impose regulations on the exercise of that right.
 
#53 ·
Mlr1m and others you are kidding right. "What makes you think they want to be stopped?"

As stated the majority of people who OC do it for self protection but the "1%" as you call them get all the airtime with the film crew that is following them around. It has been posted on here and beaten to death many do it just to get attention. They carry cheap firearms they have no intent to defend themselves with and dont lose anything if they are confiscated I was informed of this right here in the OC forum. Some carry long guns just cause they can for shock value or to draw attention all under the premise that "We are educating the public".

I have no problem with OC but as was stated in another post you are the ambassadors for everyone who carries a firearm and I assure you that "one guy" will be the one who makes the news or gets 3 zillion hits on youtube will be the one we are all judged by.

What makes you think they want to be stopped? Well the AR at the salad bar is my first clue.
 
#54 · (Edited)
Mlr1m and others you are kidding right. "What makes you think they want to be stopped?"

As stated the majority of people who OC do it for self protection but the "1%" as you call them get all the airtime with the film crew that is following them around. It has been posted on here and beaten to death many do it just to get attention. They carry cheap firearms they have no intent to defend themselves with and dont lose anything if they are confiscated I was informed of this right here in the OC forum. Some carry long guns just cause they can for shock value or to draw attention all under the premise that "We are educating the public".

I have no problem with OC but as was stated in another post you are the ambassadors for everyone who carries a firearm and I assure you that "one guy" will be the one who makes the news or gets 3 zillion hits on youtube will be the one we are all judged by.

What makes you think they want to be stopped? Well the AR at the salad bar is my first clue.
Lets say this is true that they do want to be stopped. I'm sure there are those who do.
Why are the police giving them what they want? Ignore them if they are not breaking any laws. Don't give them their time in the spotlight by doing exactly what they expect you to do.
Are some of them baiting the police? Probably, but where does it say the police have to take the bait. Aren't they supposed to be better trained than that?
If the police know that it is legal to open carry why are they stopping them?
If the police do not know what they are doing is illegal why are they stopping them? Should we stop everyone to see if they are breaking a law? Hold them until I can confirm no law has been broken?

As for the AR at the salad bar. Is it illegal? If so you have an arrest to make. If it isn't illegal there is nothing for you to do. Except maybe to inform anyone concerned that no law is being broken.

Michael
 
#55 ·
LE has a duty to respond if called so yes they have to take the bait on occasion but again these ambassadors of the gun world are teaching and showing everyone they have their rights of course it does not matter they look utterly stupid doing it but whatever floats their boat.

Nope AR at the salad bar is not illegal it is a dumb butt stunt to get attention and for shock value. It makes gun owners in general look like a bunch of morons wanting to shoot someone but it is his god given right to do it and gain attention and "Edumicate" the public on what his rights are, right up to the point those rights are taken away. Dont believe me? Ask someone involved in the OC movement in California it worked really good there.
 
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#67 ·
LE has a duty to respond if called so yes they have to take the bait on occasion but again these ambassadors of the gun world are teaching and showing everyone they have their rights of course it does not matter they look utterly stupid doing it but whatever floats their boat.

Nope AR at the salad bar is not illegal it is a dumb butt stunt to get attention and for shock value. It makes gun owners in general look like a bunch of morons wanting to shoot someone but it is his god given right to do it and gain attention and "Edumicate" the public on what his rights are, right up to the point those rights are taken away. Dont believe me? Ask someone involved in the OC movement in California it worked really good there.
Yes the police should respond when called. We just seem to disagree on the response. In my opinion their response should not be to hassle someone who is not breaking the law.

Is the guy at the salad bar doing something stupid? Again we agree, unless he is walking home from the shooting range or some other place where his AR was necessary to have.
Even then I would agree that it is not a good idea to carry one around in public.

We both agree that in many cases these folks are attempting top provoke reaction. I hope we can agree that in many other cases the open carrier has no desire to be hassled.

What we disagree on is the reaction of the police. They should know the law they claim to be enforcing. They should not use their position of authority to strong arm the public into giving up their rights.
Is it to much to ask of the police to be left alone if you are breaking no law? If a man with a gun call is received and the man is breaking no law whats wrong with informing the caller that it is not against the law to carry?

Michael
 
#62 ·
All I know is that if I see a guy open carrying and publicly urinating, I'm going to leave him alone.:smile:
 
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