Another OC acknowledged as a deterrent.

This is a discussion on Another OC acknowledged as a deterrent. within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Dumbledork Hold on, let me call up Open Carry HQ and ask the boss, he should know. You are pretty much ignoring ...

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Thread: Another OC acknowledged as a deterrent.

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbledork View Post
    Hold on, let me call up Open Carry HQ and ask the boss, he should know.

    You are pretty much ignoring everything I pointed out. The guy the OP was talking about averted a crime from occurring, because he was visibly armed. If you can't accept that, I can't help you. Go ahead and ignore facts being presented to you. Because it makes me look immature. LOL
    Yep, second hand account from a member of another forum. Must be true then, I am using your logic...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    There is nothing that is concrete fact that a crime was in the making. It is nothing but the person perception at that moment.

    And, to explore this a little further, for the sake of argument, let's assume that there was a crime in the making. Was it the sight of the gun on the hip of the OCer, or the thought that he may be LE? And, if that be the case, let's go even further.
    If a crime was about to be committed, and the group felt their numbers trumped one LE, who has training and instant logistical support, what kind of s- storm would the OCer have found himself in?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #48
    Member Array Dumbledork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    There is nothing that is concrete fact that a crime was in the making. It is nothing but the person perception at that moment.

    And, to explore this a little further, for the sake of argument, let's assume that there was a crime in the making. Was it the sight of the gun on the hip of the OCer, or the thought that he may be LE? And, if that be the case, let's go even further.
    If a crime was about to be committed, and the group felt their numbers trumped one LE, who has training and instant logistical support, what kind of s- storm would the OCer have found himself in?
    1. We'll never know what these particular guys were thinking, i they indeed were planning on committing a crime or not. It's possible they may have thought he was LEO, or they may have thought he was an employee who was armed.

    2. If they decided their numbers trumped a LEO's training, then the person's status or non-status as LEO would have been irrelevant. You seriously overestimate the training of the average LEO. Do you think all LEO have special commando training? Hardly. Many LEO only shoot their guns enough to be able to qualify once or twice yearly. Or do all the documented cases of LEOs missing their targets, or hitting innocent bystanders, is evidence of that special training they receive?

    In a gunfight, anyone, whether they're LEO or a pudgy librarian carrying a Glock, would have been screwed. Don't kid yourself by thinking otherwise.

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The problem, and the only REAL problem, I have with OC, that it seems that people either don't think about, or, refuse to consider, is that a gun carried in the open becomes a factor, whether you want it to or not.
    In other words, it's just as easy to attract rude, unwanted and even provocative comments during an encounter with an idiot and escalate the situation in even a minor encounter where there may be an exchange of words with someone. They see the gun on your hip, and begin to feed off of that.

    Take something like a minor traffic incident, where you accidently bump someone in a parking lot. The person you hit is angry because it may be your fault. You exchange words, but now he sees you have a gun on your hip. Now, it becomes a factor. I should not have to elaborate on this any further, as if anyone here has had a run in with certain types of people, it should be self explanatory how this could snowball.
    I personally know of a incident which snowballed in which a man openly carrying his firearm was arrested.

    I can't give any details, but this is the gist of what happened:

    "Mr. A" was doing something "Mr. OC" found objectionable. Mr. OC approached Mr. A and told him to stop. 30 minutes later, Mr. OC was arrested because Mr. A called the cops and told them that Mr. OC had pointed his weapon at him and threatened to use it on him. He told the cops that his girlfriend witnessed this as well.

    Mr. OC eventually got out of this, but it took six months and thousands of dollars in lawyer fees...
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    In my opinion it would be foolish to say that open carry does not deter crime. It would be a bit like saying that a persons size is not a deterrence to being attacked physically. It is only natural for most attackers to go after prey that is less likely to harm them or offer resistance.

    Now I am sure that most of us have known someone who will go out of their way to attack the big guy. I have known a few of them. Whether they do it in order to prove dominance or just out of sheer stupidity doesn't matter. The fact is that it does happen.

    Does the fact that it does happen on occasion negate the fact that open carry or being physically superior is a deterrence? Are we saying that if it does not offer 100% deterrence that it is not effective?

    Michael
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  7. #51
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    DumbleDork, the point is not whether an LE would have been more effect than Joe Blow, it that Mr Blow could have unintentionally ended up in a bad situation created by the gun he was wearing, which, as many who OC even acknowledge, may have lead them to think he was an LE. Since you have read alot of these post, I'm sure you have seen the many statements made by those who OC acknowledge that many people believe they are LE.

    And, since you acknowledge that there is no evidence that a crime was even in the making, then it makes the entire thread pretty much a non factual argument.

    Fact, as in evidence of, must be based on conclusive irrefutable events and not left to conjecture or what one wants to believe.
    As it stands, if we take every possibility, and everything we know to this point, there is no more evidence or fact that OC deters crime, or that it may not cause more problems than not, than to say it's a fact there there are alien life forms.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #52
    Senior Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Quick question, How many OCers are there nation wide? If its close to the CCer count Ill give you your statistics, if not. Your just blowing pink smoke.
    Back to the topic at hand...

    I believe that many more people would open carry if our nation hadn't vilified firearms through politics and media. Not every state allows open carry. See my previous sentence in regards to this issue. Because the nation has successfully vilified firearms, to a degree, the sheeple of the world tend to freak out when they see firearms on any being that doesn't have a badge or uniform. Personally, I would rather see these wrongful views be snuffed out - one way or another.

    The forum can and does argue "what if" scenarios all day long. Open carrying vs Concealed carrying seems to be the biggest topic around here. Personally, I have seen absolutely no circumstantial evidence to back the claim that open carrying is better than concealed carrying, or vice-verse. Each seems to have their pro's and cons in today's society. Most people are more comfortable carrying concealed. This is mainly due to the reasons above. I am in favor of people carrying in the way that makes them feel the most comfortable. Arguably, the more comfortable you are, the more of your senses you have to devote to situational awareness.

    One thing we can all agree on, is that Americans deserve the ability to protect themselves, others, and their property. Arguing about whether our defensive tools are in view of the public, or not, is just going to lead to more restrictions, for everyone, in the end.

  9. #53
    Member Array Dumbledork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    DumbleDork, the point is not whether an LE would have been more effect than Joe Blow, it that Mr Blow could have unintentionally ended up in a bad situation created by the gun he was wearing, which, as many who OC even acknowledge, may have lead them to think he was an LE. Since you have read alot of these post, I'm sure you have seen the many statements made by those who OC acknowledge that many people believe they are LE.

    And, since you acknowledge that there is no evidence that a crime was even in the making, then it makes the entire thread pretty much a non factual argument.

    Fact, as in evidence of, must be based on conclusive irrefutable events and not left to conjecture or what one wants to believe.
    As it stands, if we take every possibility, and everything we know to this point, there is no more evidence or fact that OC deters crime, or that it may not cause more problems than not, than to say it's a fact there there are alien life forms.
    I can agree with the points you amde here, if you can agree that concealed carry has no real advantage over open carry, and that there's no evidence to the fact that it deters crime, either.

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I can't remember anyone ever claiming that CC detours crime. That's not even the purpose of the defensive handgun.
    Look out it this way, to say "detour" is an implication of an offensive measure, or to prevent. No method of carry can prevent a hostile or criminal action upon a person. But either method, in the case of a situation where this is no choice but to introduce deadly force to stop an aggression will certainly work, but neither is a guarantee of success.

    CC has one advantage, and that is to not introduce a gun into a situation unless absolutely necessary. This can be the difference between a lot of unwanted drama, and a non event.
    Of course the advantage of OC is quicker access.

    As long as people fully understand the pros and cons, than each his own.
    Dumbledork likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    As long as people fully understand the pros and cons, than each his own.
    I wish everyone felt this way about most actions other folks take. Power to them, its not harming others.

    Michael

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