Interesting LEO Encounter While Open Carrying

[smolck]

Disadvantages to concealed carry (BTW, I conceal about 70% of the time)

1. less comfortable
2. can take longer to access your firearm (especially when seated, like in a car)
3. may have to carry a smaller firearm
4. sweat can make your gun rust

I am sure there are others, so I may add to others in another post.


If you think you can't be hassled while CCing, you haven't done much research. Some LEOs hassle CCers during traffic stops or in public if they print.

I have been CC'ing long enough to know I have NEVER been hassled. I know how to conceal my weapon in a way that NOBODY knows I have a firearm, PERIOD. If I am printing, I am not concealed carrying now am I? A traffic stop is a non issue, I live in a non inform state. They never know.

As to your disadvantages:
1. I find CC to be perfectly comfortable and no more or less than my OWB rig (which I can also conceal).
2. Practice, practice, practice.
3. I carry a commander length 1911 everyday. 80% of the year I wear shorts and a tshirt.
4. Sweat has never made ANY of my guns rust. I am smart enough to wipe them down if I carry them and sweat a lot.

I find it funny you chose to respond to this portion of my response given the other points I made. Seems like you want to argue. I already said I am all for open carry if it is legal. But I do not find it advantageous in any way.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Badey]

I have been CC'ing long enough to know I have NEVER been hassled. I know how to conceal my weapon in a way that NOBODY knows I have a firearm, PERIOD. If I am printing, I am not concealed carrying now am I? A traffic stop is a non issue, I live in a non inform state. They never know.

As to your disadvantages:
1. I find CC to be perfectly comfortable and no more or less than my OWB rig (which I can also conceal).
2. Practice, practice, practice.
3. I carry a commander length 1911 everyday. 80% of the year I wear shorts and a tshirt.
4. Sweat has never made ANY of my guns rust. I am smart enough to wipe them down if I carry them and sweat a lot.

I find it funny you chose to respond to this portion of my response given the other points I made. Seems like you want to argue. I already said I am all for open carry if it is legal. But I do not find it advantageous in any way.

This is a discussion forum; we are discussing. It would be pretty boring if every reply was, "I agree, thanks." I agreed with the rest of your comment and felt little need to say "I agree, thanks."

I responded because you were asserting your opinion as fact. You essentially said that there are no disadvantages to concealed carry. I thought that was a bit naive. The four disadvantages that I listed apply to me, and to others that I have talked to. They may not apply to you, but that does not mean that they don't apply to anyone else.

As to your responses to my objections, I have practiced a lot both ways and have found that I am faster with OC. My XD has gotten rust spots on it, and I take good care of it. I have a bunch of holsters, and have yet to find an IWB as comfortable as an OWB.

As to carrying the 1911, I think that is awesome and want to know what rig you use.

[suntzu]

I understand your argument and where you are coming from, but I think it lacks a little....common-sense (with all due respect, truly).

First of all, most of what you stated above could land you a disorderly conduct/disturbing the peace charge.

Say I am at Chucky Cheese with my kids playing. Another parent looses his cool because of all the excitement and loud noises, and starts cussing at the kids to "pipe down". Cop just happens to be there because he likes to see all the lights (from withdraw of not using his own dash lights) and comes over to tell the man to change his choice of words because he may tick off some customers. Are you saying that the cop is out of line here?

The store manager didn't call him, he was there getting his "flash fix", neither did a concerned citizen. Would this be a just encounter?

Another example, woman leaves a bikini show in downtown Atlanta. It's night time and very warm. She decides to go to the local 24hr tanning bed in the shady part of town because it's cheaper. She decides not to change and goes right in her bikini. She is seen by a cop walking down the street, cop pulls up and says,

"Mam, you are asking for trouble walking down the street in an outfit like that, in this part of town. Someone is likely to try to take advantage of you or rape you, or you may cause an accident. I suggest you put something on". Again, would the officer's opinion here be out of line too?

The man has the right to free speech, the woman has a right to wear what she wants and go where she wants. These may seem extreme, but to the general population who are not gun enthusiast, so is a man with a gun on his hip in a public park. Believe it or not, situations like the two above happen all the time with varied details, minus the cop getting a "flash fix".

A person who is concerned about their safety/security, must try to be aware of their surroundings. As gun owners in this mindset, we try to see behavioral indicators to asses a threat that is being exposed to us. We must respond to the escalation before we are caught off guard and made a victim. This also includes us being conscious of our own behavior and how it is perceived, so that it does not contribute to the escalation. If time allows, always try to defuse, before having to pull the trigger as a last resort. Why because we choose to OC, does this same awareness not have a place?

I disagree, A man cussing and causing a scene by his actions is not protected freedom of speech. Not all speech is protected per numerous rulings by SCOTUS. That person can be charged with something. A girl walking down the street in a bikini is not subject to being arrested in your example. Just an officer is there for HER welfare. Not becasue she is causing a problem or may cause a problem for others.
A person wearing a shirt that is LEGAL by the standards of the community can not be arrested (or should not) just becasue of the LEO's opinion. If he is arrested then that would be harrasment.
So I do not understand your post. Besides, as far as a MWAG call that can happen ANYWHERE. You do not know when you might get someone nervous OC'ing. The two times LEO's got a MWAG call on me I was on a dirt road in the middle of nowhere walking my dog.

[DoctorBob]

You might think twice about recording a "stop."

It is unlawful in Florida to record a conversation without the permission of both parties. You could easily be arrested for violating trhe wire tap laws. You would counter that a public servant has no reasonable expectation of privacy when carrying out an activity in a public place. You might win onn that; but you would have an arrest record and spend a whole lot of money and time proving it.

"You cannot control the wind but you can trim the sails...."

You can argue the constitution all you want but you still "get the ride..." Could you recoup some of your $$, maybe if you had a really agregious case and a lawyer who thought you could get a big enough settlement to make his 30% worthwhile.

[DoctorBob]

Why is it that so many people ask this question? Do you really believe that a person must have a suitable reason for doing something that is perfectly legal? Do you think that everyone must justify their actions to the rest of society or the State? That everyone must conform to what some feel is proper?

Michael

No, I just think it is unwise to feed the lions (or LEOs) by sticking your hand in their cage. If you feel you are reaching for something that is worth your hand, go ahead.

[suntzu]

You might think twice about recording a "stop."

It is unlawful in Florida to record a conversation without the permission of both parties. You could easily be arrested for violating trhe wire tap laws. You would counter that a public servant has no reasonable expectation of privacy when carrying out an activity in a public place. You might win onn that; but you would have an arrest record and spend a whole lot of money and time proving it.

"You cannot control the wind but you can trim the sails...."

You can argue the constitution all you want but you still "get the ride..." Could you recoup some of your $$, maybe if you had a really agregious case and a lawyer who thought you could get a big enough settlement to make his 30% worthwhile.

So what do you do if faced with standing up to your rights or a possible arrest even knowing the charges may be dropped? Do you cower and bow to authority? When do you stand up for your rights? BTW: in NH it is legal to record a LEO. If CC'ers were getting harrassed by LEO's as much as OC'ers I am sure that most people here would change there tune real quick. How could a CC'er get harrassed? same way. If you have a duty to inform a LEO you are carrying because of a traffic stop or official interaction with the LEO and they were giving you speaches about guns and maybe you should lock it up and if you didn't obey they would charge you with disorderly conduct everybody's attitudes would change. REAL QUICK

[Pistology]

Well, I feel like I should do my part to help the fight for gun rights. My main question is about the ramifications to my LTCF if I have an arrest on my record for open carry.

No, I just think it is unwise to feed the lions (or LEOs) by sticking your hand in their cage. If you feel you are reaching for something that is worth your hand, go ahead.

Someone said, "pick your battles". The connotation in this context is, "pick your battlefields". You have nothing to gain by being a test case that you can't already process by communicating the OP encounter with the chief, and, whether satisfied with the chief's response or not, with your local and up to your state representative. If you aren't sure, you're out of your league being a test case. At the very least, start research digging through a lot of paper; and get support from civil rights groups veterans or students who can educate you in tactics of civil disobedience like role play. I'm not saying that you can't do it but that it probably isn't worth taking that low road.

If you are exercising your rights, whether or not looking to be a test case, and have another encounter, then the below reply is quite appropriate.

I would have said "I respect your authority officer, but I am under no legal obligation to conceal my weapon". Who knows where it goes from there.

I personally guarantee I don't have to deal with this kind of thing by always concealing my firearm. It's just easier that way.

If the officer moves to arrest you, you may get your test case or may have the opportunity to cover; and I would chose the latter.

[Badey]

You might think twice about recording a "stop."

It is unlawful in Florida to record a conversation without the permission of both parties. You could easily be arrested for violating trhe wire tap laws. You would counter that a public servant has no reasonable expectation of privacy when carrying out an activity in a public place. You might win onn that; but you would have an arrest record and spend a whole lot of money and time proving it.

"You cannot control the wind but you can trim the sails...."

You can argue the constitution all you want but you still "get the ride..." Could you recoup some of your $$, maybe if you had a really agregious case and a lawyer who thought you could get a big enough settlement to make his 30% worthwhile.

It is legal to record an officer in PA. We are a two party consent state, but that does not apply to officers on duty.

[Badey]

Someone said, "pick your battles". The connotation in this context is, "pick your battlefields". You have nothing to gain by being a test case that you can't already process by communicating the OP encounter with the chief, and, whether satisfied with the chief's response or not, with your local and up to your state representative. If you aren't sure, you're out of your league being a test case. At the very least, start research digging through a lot of paper; and get support from civil rights groups veterans or students who can educate you in tactics of civil disobedience like role play. I'm not saying that you can't do it but that it probably isn't worth taking that low road.

If you are exercising your rights, whether or not looking to be a test case, and have another encounter, then the below reply is quite appropriate.



If the officer moves to arrest you, you may get your test case or may have the opportunity to cover; and I would chose the latter.

All police here are trained on the legality of open carry, or at least they are supposed to be, so it is not an issue of education of the officers. There have already been several suits in the state of PA about open carry, and PDs have had to fork over money in settlements, but that still has not changed the actions of some LEOs.

I am not sure how talking to the chief or my reps is going to change the reaction of LEOs who already KNOW open carry is legal, yet still choose to try to coerce people to conceal

[smolck]

If the officer moves to arrest you, you may get your test case or may have the opportunity to cover; and I would chose the latter.

Problem is, they know that most people would rather choose the latter (conceal even though open is legal) and that is how rights get stripped away.

[DaveH]

IMHO, some places really do need to fix their 911 SOPs.

I'll not speak for any other State -- or, for that matter, all of the State of Virginia.

However, VCDL has work with some PD to establish training for the 911 operators.

When I call for a ambulance they ask questions to define the situation. Ditto MWAG calls in some jurisdictions.

If the caller responses indicates a high likelihood of legal carry the 911 operator tells the caller so.

-----

Something like this:

Caller: There is a man in [x] bar with a gun.

911: What's he doing?

Caller: He's sitting there drinking w/ a gun.

911: Does he appear drunk?

Caller: No, he's just sat down, ordered a drink, started drinking and watching the game.

911: Has he threatens anyone or waved the gun around or pulled it out of the holster, or anything the like?

Caller: No he's just sitting there drinking with a gun.

911: And you can plainly see the gun?

Caller: Yes! It's right there for everyone to see.

911: Ma'am all that is legal. Now, if he begins to act drunk or in any way threaten someone please call back and we will send officers.

-----

IMHO, it is not good resource allocation to launch SWAT in some situations.

[mulle46]

didnt read all the posts, and its been awhile since i visited here, but as a LEO, in the situation the op posted, im not going to use profanity. one, in my opinion, its not necessary, 2, not going to help the situation. 3, other ways to express yourself. but, there are times to use profanity to make your point and calm a situation that civil language wouldn't work in.

[Badey]

but, there are times to use profanity to make your point and calm a situation that civil language wouldn't work in.

I agree with your points, especially this one (coming from someone who rarely uses profanity).

[Crowman]

Recording with the permission of one of the parties (which obviously you would be a party) is legal in some states and it some states you have to have everyone's permission. Here is a site that shows the law in each state. I would suggest that if you intend to record traffic stops that you actually research the law in your state or a state where you might want to and not solely rely on the info from the below link.
State-by-state guide | Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press

[ZeBool]

This is how I handled an encounter like that. Pittsburgh police, as well.





I also posted this on PAFOA.org, where it was discussed at some length:
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...-recorded.html
Badey, as a PA gun owner, you should join up over there.