Interesting LEO Encounter While Open Carrying

This is a discussion on Interesting LEO Encounter While Open Carrying within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by suntzu Look, if a LEO feels his job is crappy he can quit. This was not a MAWG response. Ya know, if ...

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Thread: Interesting LEO Encounter While Open Carrying

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array acepilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Look, if a LEO feels his job is crappy he can quit. This was not a MAWG response. Ya know, if they respond to all MAWG reports well, that is thier job. And when I OC I had cops called twice. I understand it is thier job and have no problems with it. I have a problem with a LEO on his own doing what this guy did. Also, the idiot that kept calling the cops on me stopped responding after they asked the lady if it was the same guy (me). I don't know the protocol that LEO's have reagarding this. But in essence a right is trying to be taken away for the conevnience of eveerybody else (scared mom, LEO's). Why don't we just get rid of the nasty 4th amendment. It sure would make LEO's jobs easier.....whew..time for my coffee
    I agree. The LEO should have known OC was legal (and sounds like he did)...he probably should have actually waited until he got a MWAG call, showed up at the scene, told you he got that call and that you are all legal and good to go and then should have had contact with the MWAG caller and explained that it was legal and there was nothing he could do about it. Maybe the caller had no idea OC was even legal...
    Ace
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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    I don't think you caved, to me it looks like you de-escalated appropriately. I think you followed the rule that says you will never win an argument with a cop by the side of the road, nor is it the place to try. I also think that you do need to follow up on this issue and raise it through appropirate channels, be it through the chief of police or your city counsel or other and that you really should proceed with this until you get resolution feedback. If you don't I would be concerned about the next time you OC and encounter this same guy. I'm sure you can imagine how that enounter would go.

    As far as the MWAG calls go, well, thats a departmental training issue and one that they need to address. This has come up a few times in the past and I think the best response was the one where the 911 operater told the caller that it wasn't illegal to carry a gun. The issue isn't whether it is more advantageous to OC or CC. The issue is allowing political correctness and keeping the sheep quiet to dictacte ones behavior, when one is not in the wrong.

  4. #48
    Senior Member Array acepilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Depends what state....but I think I see where you are going. I was thinking of that before. You need no liscens/permit to OC. So what if a LEO was adamant abuut it and you did not have a CC permit or did not have it with you? Good question. When I OC I don't have my permit with me to CC. It is when I am hiking or walking my dog or snow shoeing.
    Yup, you got my point. If you DIDN'T have a CCW permit, would the LEO have taken the gun or told you to get your a$$ home and don't let me catch you out in public like that again. I keep my CCW in my wallet and always have my wallet along, even when out walking around...

    Yes, I suppose it does depend on which state you're in. I'm not aware of any state that allows OC but doesn't allow CC but there probably are some states that allow CC but not OC???
    Ace
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  5. #49
    New Member Array LaManchaDQ's Avatar
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    Leo's inconsiderate, impolite and offense language could have pushed you in the direction of refusing to acquiesce to his request. It is unfortunate that officers default to intimidation. Even so, Leo had a valid concern for the other people in the park. I think you did the right thing, though Leo did his utmost to dissuade you from complying.

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acepilot View Post
    Yes, I suppose it does depend on which state you're in. I'm not aware of any state that allows OC but doesn't allow CC but there probably are some states that allow CC but not OC???
    The OP in in PA I believe (and they have repeatedly stated that they are aware of their local laws). According to Pennsylvania Open Carry Gun Laws, Information, Fliers and Forum - paopencarry.org
    In Pennsylvania, persons 18 years of age and older whom are not prohibited by law from owning firearms may openly carry a handgun in plain sight with no license except in vehicles*, cities of the first class** (Philadelphia) and where prohibited specifically by statute
    I think that there are several states that allow OC without a permit.

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    This thread personaly cracks me up. I have been accused of being anti 2a because I said it is up to a neighborhood watch group which is a private group to not allow its folks to carry while part of the watch. No where did I say the government should get involved or make a law. And if a group did this an individuals rights are not violated at all. A person could carry at the same time on the same public areas as the neighborhood watch. They would not officially be part of the group so if something happened the HOA would or might not be liable.

    Now, folks seem to think it is totally Okee Dokee to think it is OK for LE to come up to a citizen, exercising his right to OC, no MWAG call, and confront him with hypothetical how it might scare folks. And a lot of folks seem to think it is OK for the officer to basically brow beat and or try to convince the OC'er to not OC while he is in an official capacity!
    And BTW: don't try to say it is for his own good so he won't be hassled. He already is being hassled.

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaManchaDQ View Post
    Leo's inconsiderate, impolite and offense language could have pushed you in the direction of refusing to acquiesce to his request. It is unfortunate that officers default to intimidation. Even so, Leo had a valid concern for the other people in the park. I think you did the right thing, though Leo did his utmost to dissuade you from complying.
    It's fine to not acquiesce to a request of an LEO when there is no RAS or PC for a stop (i.e., you are free to go). If it is a voluntary encounter, you can simply walk away. I wouldn't go so far as to say the LEO had a valid concern. Other people's ignorance? I'm not saying the OP should have gone off on a constitutional rant - I wasn't there. But I know that it's a hassle when you OC and people simply freak out because of ignorance. And I understand why some people will simply say "Yeah, ok" when confronted by LEO's even when they don't have to and even when there's no risk of arrest, fine, etc.

    My point is that many of us respect - and are indeed grateful - for the choice of others to go into law enforcement - but that fact should not cloud our judgment when it comes to assessing their conduct objectively.

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    So you ride a very fast crotch rocket motorcycle flashy color and all.
    LEO does not like that image and the fact it will go 3 times the speed limit. So he tells you to leave it at home and do not come back to his town because he and others do not like it.
    Office just trying to be helpful tells a Black man he is really out of place on this side of town and must leave because he worries others.
    LEO have no right whats so ever at anything to pull this. We all know they do and they get away with it.
    The LEO needs to be hauled into court chances are good that would never happen. He should be fired but that is not going to happen either.
    Today the open carry guy when they have him beat down your next.
    suntzu likes this.

  10. #54
    New Member Array arizona's Avatar
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    Any time a sworn officer starts swearing at or in the presence of law abiding citizens we have a problem
    MleeC likes this.

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array Inspector71's Avatar
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    When I was a young pup and occasionally getting into trouble, I would always give that wide eyed, mouth hanging open expression pleading that I didn't know that! As I was being led out back to the woodshed I was always reminded that "ignorance of the law is not an excuse boy." Seems like that should still apply today. If people took time to know the law there should not be any MWAG calls when people see OCers. But, alas, our society teaches us to be afraid of big bad guns and the mean people who carry them.
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  12. #56
    New Member Array arizona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redwilson View Post
    That is the reason I do not open carry. Yes, it's legal...however it is also a pain because most always someone calls LE for "man with a gun". I carry a gun to protect myself and my wife, not to advertise that I'm carrying a gun. That's why I got a concealed carry license.
    How long can we hope to have a constitutional right If we feel obliged to hide that right because law enforcement might disapprove?
    Imagine if we extend this reasoning to the First Amendment! Gosh I would like to put a pro Catholic, pro Darwin, pro whatever bumper sticker on my car but the Mormon, Baptist, whatever dominated police department may not approve?

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbledork View Post
    I think you DID cave. If you're not ready to stand up for yourself when being faced with a LEO who doesnt care about your rights, and uses intimidation to get you to comply, you should stop open carrying, and just conceal from now on.
    I agree that I caved, however, I think your idea that I should stop open carrying until I will be able to perfectly respond to an LEO who is trying to intimidate me is a bit over-the-top. It was my first LEO encounter and I did my best. I have done more research (I had already done several hours before I decided to OC), and feel more prepared if I have another, similar encounter.
    "My problem with life is not that it is rational nor that it is irrational, but that it is almost rational." - G.K. Chesterton

  14. #58
    Senior Member Array tubadude's Avatar
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    I would probably tell the cop something along the lines of "the last time I checked, feelings don't trump the law," but when the area is approaching it's 100th bomb threat in two months, one should use a bit of discretion.

    I've never had any problems in PA when I open carried, even when I open carried before I was 21.
    Last edited by tubadude; April 15th, 2012 at 04:47 PM.

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by arizona View Post
    How long can we hope to have a constitutional right If we feel obliged to hide that right because law enforcement might disapprove?
    Imagine if we extend this reasoning to the First Amendment! Gosh I would like to put a pro Catholic, pro Darwin, pro whatever bumper sticker on my car but the Mormon, Baptist, whatever dominated police department may not approve?
    I wasn't there, but there are times to just legally "chill out." The same can be said for the Fifth amendment. Does everyone here, every time they are stopped by a cop and the cop asks them a question (e.g., Do you know why I stopped you?/You in a hurry?/etc.) say "Officer, I choose at this time to remain silent as provided by the Fifth Amendment. I respectfully decline to answer any of your questions."

    C'mon. Just because you acquiesce once doesn't mean you are flushing the Constitution down the drain.

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    I wasn't there, but there are times to just legally "chill out." The same can be said for the Fifth amendment. Does everyone here, every time they are stopped by a cop and the cop asks them a question (e.g., Do you know why I stopped you?/You in a hurry?/etc.) say "Officer, I choose at this time to remain silent as provided by the Fifth Amendment. I respectfully decline to answer any of your questions."

    C'mon. Just because you acquiesce once doesn't mean you are flushing the Constitution down the drain.
    Uh, excuse me. Are you truly trying to equate someone minding his own business and a LEO approaching him for no other reason than the man carrying a weapon legally to a traffic stop where an officer has pulled you over for a reason or cause. I guess next it will be OK for LE or other groups to appraoch you at the voting booth and say it will be easier on everybody if you just tell me who you are going to vote for.

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