Interesting LEO Encounter While Open Carrying

This is a discussion on Interesting LEO Encounter While Open Carrying within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Crowman I find it frustrating that 2nd amendment advocates have been on defense for at least the last 20 years. Personally I ...

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Thread: Interesting LEO Encounter While Open Carrying

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    I find it frustrating that 2nd amendment advocates have been on defense for at least the last 20 years. Personally I believe that we need to go on offense. It is time the American public again becomes desensitized to seeing someone carrying a firearm. One way is open carry. There needs to be an open carry once a month movement in this country. We have compromised and "caved" for far too long. The only ones that have really benefited from us being on defense is the criminal element.

    The anti 2nd amendment people, groups, etc., need to deal with the real problem. The need to advocate for CRIME control not GUN control.
    I can agree with this part of your post. The public does need to be made aware that the law abiding citizen is not the ones to fear.

    An organized & peaceful public event (perhaps with some frequency) might help to draw public attention to the right to OC. There was one such series of events that occurred here in Wisconsin that got some pretty decent press, prior to CC legalization. Unfortunately, some less than talented public speakers also addressed the news and painted some bad imagery for the public as well.......and that's who the liberal press is going to try to interview.

    My point is to definitely stand up for your rights, but pick the proper venues for your protest. One on one with an officer who may have a problem (outside of his role) is not often the right venue. Most are just doing their jobs and they are human also.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
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  3. #92
    Member Array Dumbledork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    Don't worry about this. I live in Florida and right now, OC anywhere near Sanford is likely to bring a VERY negative response. What were you trying to accomplish by OC.? I use CC to gain a tactical advantage, and protect myself and my wife if necessary. I'm not, and I'm sure you are not, out to give LEOs a hard time, make them take the time away from their other work to answer a MWAG call that might leave me compromised or worse. There may be a time and a place and a reason to try to make an OC point -- this was probably not one of those...
    *FACEPALM

    The point of open carry is the same as concealed carry: self defense. Here we go with the tactical advantage nonsense.
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  4. #93
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoboxer View Post
    I think the proper time to "buck heads" with a LEO, has been stated in this thread....a couple times. Suck it up in the moment, and give yourself the "tactical advantage", by documenting the situation after the event and writing a formal complaint. Enough instances against an officer will warrant action from the department.

    I personally don't have a problem with authority from officers. I have dealt with some fairly bold/rude ones, but much less than officers who are just doing their job and are courteous....even helpful. However, on the "side of the road", the officer is going to do everything in his power to maintain control, it's their job & stakes are high. They have no idea who you are and your intentions and will likely be prepared for conflict....and some less experienced, might actually provoke it. They have the benefit of the doubt come court time if something were to go south in the event. In this situation, I see it appropriate to comply in the moment and handle it when you can put pen to paper or speak with a superior. Though, I personally would not have been offended by his recommendation in this scenario, just maybe his tactics.

    I am not a LEO. Other than this officer's bold use of language and described demeanor (if OP documented it accurately), I agree with the officer's point. Many soccer moms would flip if they saw the man with a gun......why do you think there are so many instances of MWAG who is OC? Remember, that OC'ers are in the minority of gun owner's, let alone the general population....thus, the general population is unaware of the legality of it. Heck, there are even avid 2A supporters on this forum who don't even know about all their own state's laws.

    Many people on DC will talk about being "in-tune" with their surroundings and won't go here or there at this time of night, because they want to avoid conflicts with criminals. But, they seem to lose such judgement when they want to assert their rights or measure their....um.....authority.

    Like I said earlier, there is a time and a place for things. You have a right to free speech and in most places you can cuss all you want. I'm pretty sure that even though it's a right, it's not appropriate in many situations or places, by sheer common sense. I support the right to carry, but I am also understanding of human nature for people to react a certain way because they do not see something often enough to be desensitized by it. An active public park is a place where you are just asking for it. Just my $0.02
    I carry to be able to defend myself against two and four-legged threats. I was going to be walking on some trails in the woods (the park was outside of Pittsburgh, in a more rural location). I gave up one tactical advantage, IMO, by covering, thus making it harder for me to get to my firearm, if needed.

    No one in the park had complained. I passed several people this day, and many on previous days. Everybody was friendly, and most said "hi" to me. The only person I have yet to have a problem with while open carrying was this LEO. Also, the more people see open carry, the more they will get used to it, so I was just doing my part in that regard. If no one ever does it because people aren't used to it, how will they ever get used to it??
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    "My problem with life is not that it is rational nor that it is irrational, but that it is almost rational." - G.K. Chesterton

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    I carry to be able to defend myself against two and four-legged threats. I was going to be walking on some trails in the woods (the park was outside of Pittsburgh, in a more rural location). I gave up one tactical advantage, IMO, by covering, thus making it harder for me to get to my firearm, if needed.
    For me, it wouldn't be a tactical loss when I have IWB Crossbreed. I train to pull my shirt with left hand and draw firearm with right, in one fluid motion. The difference in time between the two types of draw (OC & CC) are nil with training. The only time I would possibly be delayed is if I were wearing a heavy zippered coat in this method, but I don't do that. I will then pocket carry the coat.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
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  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Don't mistake choosing to fight your battle in a more intelligent way with bowing to authority. It's just not smart to buck heads with a belligerent cop on his turf. If you are indeed following the law then fight your battle with some strategy. A tactical retreat from that poorly trained cop followed by a move up the food chain with your complaint would seem a safer and more effective way to win your point and perhaps even get your cop some education.
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Well, all I can say is EVERY time I can recall in this forum it seems like it is NEVER the right to 'buck heads' with a LEO when they question you about OC'ing. That is the pathetic part. So, you tell me when it is the proper time to 'buck heads' with a LEO? Just curious if you can tell us.
    I know cops who I'm certain you could have a roadside discussion of the statutes with and who would be reasonable, rational, and polite so long as you were the same. The cop as described by our original poster would not appear to be that type. He's a one way thinking guy with whom you'll get nowhere. With the law on your side you can win the point but it won't be won in any kind of roadside discussion with this guy. Figuring out which cop not to "buck heads" with surely isn't rocket science.
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  7. #96
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoboxer View Post
    For me, it wouldn't be a tactical loss when I have IWB Crossbreed. I train to pull my shirt with left hand and draw firearm with right, in one fluid motion. The difference in time between the two types of draw (OC & CC) are nil with training. The only time I would possibly be delayed is if I were wearing a heavy zippered coat in this method, but I don't do that. I will then pocket carry the coat.
    For me, with the type of holster I was wearing, I was definitely at a tactical disadvantage by covering. If you can draw equally as fast concealed that is great, unfortunately, I cannot, even with lots of practice.

    In most shooting scenarios, you are likely 1/4 second behind your adversary (reactionary curve). "Nil" means a lot when fractions of seconds can mean the difference between walking away from a gunfight and being carted away, IMO.

    If you conceal, I applaud you; I conceal some of the time. To me, it is more important THAT you are carrying than HOW you are carrying.
    "My problem with life is not that it is rational nor that it is irrational, but that it is almost rational." - G.K. Chesterton

  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    Also, the more people see open carry, the more they will get used to it, so I was just doing my part in that regard. If no one ever does it because people aren't used to it, how will they ever get used to it??
    Sorry, I can't seem to master the multi-quote function

    I get it and that's the challenge for us pushing to preserve our rights. I strongly feel that tactics don't just come into play during a confrontation alone. Using appropriate judgement to think about your venue and the impact it may have, before an event is important.

    Most of my argument is not intended to attack OC'ers. It's intended to encourage them to think about interactions with LEOs and the general public. Going with guns blazing-verbally, ready to challenge a police officer is not the best choice for you in that moment. 95% of the time you will lose with such a tactic. Maybe via misunderstanding you escalate, or the officer escalates, a charge is brought or worse, someone gets shot, the financial costs for defense when the officer will be granted the benefit of the doubt before you will, will be costly. Your reputation & job could be effected and your family harassed. The event could destroy your life or someone else's because of your moment in protest. Doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, it's a sensitive issue in the public eye. Imagine the press, in a situation like that would get, trust me, it won't be in your favor. And your end result would do far more damage to your movement than you could recover.

    Man with gun shoots officer at Liberty Park: It was a beautiful day and Johnny was playing for his teams third win in the regional soccer game when the game was interrupted by gun shots. "Everyone started running, it was kaos". We saw some crazy guy shoot the police man" said concerned citizen.

    If what you recount about the incident is entirely accurate, than this officer may have truly came into the situation already escalating with his demeanor. It was a good choice IMO, to recognize in this situation that the battle can be fought another day with some tact.

    My suggestion is to try to go on the offensive in ways where you have more control over the end result.
    .
    Last edited by discoboxer; April 17th, 2012 at 04:17 PM.
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  9. #98
    Senior Member Array DoctorBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Well, all I can say is EVERY time I can recall in this forum it seems like it is NEVER the right to 'buck heads' with a LEO when they question you about OC'ing. That is the pathetic part. So, you tell me when it is the proper time to 'buck heads' with a LEO? Just curious if you can tell us.
    Any time you are willing to put up with an arrest record on your profile and spend money on a lawyer to get you out of jail. They can arrest you for jaywalking or anything else and make your day really miserable but you will still 'take the ride' even if you don't 'do the time."

    I'm not saying you are wrong; only that you have to pick your battles.
    'Guerir quelquefois, soulager souvent, consoler toujours.'

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  10. #99
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    Any time you are willing to put up with an arrest record on your profile and spend money on a lawyer to get you out of jail. They can arrest you for jaywalking or anything else and make your day really miserable but you will still 'take the ride' even if you don't 'do the time."

    I'm not saying you are wrong; only that you have to pick your battles.
    Well, I honestly have the time and money. And you can darn well bet I will have my phone on recording every second of it. I am sorry, but the fact is LEO's get away with this harrassment becasue hardly anybody sticks up for themselves. You do not win a battle by writing the LEO's boss. Now it is a he said she said and I am guessing but most likely the police of chief for that LEO would more than likely defend his actions. And quite frankly I am sick of folks on this and other forums dogging other groups and politiians for trying to take away our rights when hardly anybody here seems to want to go the extra mile and stand up for themselves. It is not a judgment. If somebody feels that bowing to authority is fine, then it is fine for them. Not for me. And almost every time on threads like this it is always the same answer...you have to pick your battles...but when are folks going to actually start?
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  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    Any time you are willing to put up with an arrest record on your profile and spend money on a lawyer to get you out of jail. They can arrest you for jaywalking or anything else and make your day really miserable but you will still 'take the ride' even if you don't 'do the time."

    I'm not saying you are wrong; only that you have to pick your battles.
    First of all you can't be arrested for "Jaywalking or anything else". To get arrested you must commit an arrestable offence. As you've just proven people have a general fear of the police and let that dictate their actions. If you commit no crime, and don't give the cops a reason to arrest you, your typically fine. Don't let the idiots on youtube that INTENTIONALLY piss of the cops tell you otherwise.

  12. #101
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    Any time you are willing to put up with an arrest record on your profile and spend money on a lawyer to get you out of jail. They can arrest you for jaywalking or anything else and make your day really miserable but you will still 'take the ride' even if you don't 'do the time."

    I'm not saying you are wrong; only that you have to pick your battles.
    It is not a matter of a battle. It is simply matter of exercising the rights that have been given to us. One should not have to pick and choose. Over the years we have been slowly programed to compromise our rights and some have been watered down and/or lost. The 2nd amendment is one good example. Lest we forget this is still America.

    "Those who profess to favor freedom and yet discourage agitation are people who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waves. This struggle may be a moral one or it may be a physical one, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out what people will submit to and you will find out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them. And these will be continued until they are resisted in either words or blows or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those they oppress."
    --Frederick Douglass, 1857
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  13. #102
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Not everyone has a good reason to open carry. Nor should they have to. For me its that simple.

    Michael
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  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Not everyone has a good reason to open carry. Nor should they have to. For me its that simple.

    Michael
    Curious. Do you think OC should be restricted by law for only certain things such as hiking, hunting? Or should anyone be able to OC whenever they want unless it is posted?

  15. #104
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Curious. Do you think OC should be restricted by law for only certain things such as hiking, hunting? Or should anyone be able to OC whenever they want unless it is posted?
    I interpreted his comment to mean that he doesn't think people need a good reason to open carry; it is reason enough that they are legally allowed.
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  16. #105
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Curious. Do you think OC should be restricted by law for only certain things such as hiking, hunting? :SNIP:
    You mean like making everything illegal unless the Government passes a law making it legal? No I prefer the original idea of the American Constitution where everything is legal unless the Government passes a law making it illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    :SNIP:Or should anyone be able to OC whenever they want unless it is posted?
    I believe you should be able to carry anywhere unless the private owner of the property you are on wishes to not allow it.

    Michael
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