Interesting LEO Encounter While Open Carrying

This is a discussion on Interesting LEO Encounter While Open Carrying within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by suntzu Well, I honestly have the time and money. And you can darn well bet I will have my phone on recording ...

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  1. #106
    Member Array MisterAvis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Well, I honestly have the time and money. And you can darn well bet I will have my phone on recording every second of it. I am sorry, but the fact is LEO's get away with this harrassment becasue hardly anybody sticks up for themselves. You do not win a battle by writing the LEO's boss. Now it is a he said she said and I am guessing but most likely the police of chief for that LEO would more than likely defend his actions. And quite frankly I am sick of folks on this and other forums dogging other groups and politiians for trying to take away our rights when hardly anybody here seems to want to go the extra mile and stand up for themselves. It is not a judgment. If somebody feels that bowing to authority is fine, then it is fine for them. Not for me. And almost every time on threads like this it is always the same answer...you have to pick your battles...but when are folks going to actually start?
    You should expect to see on line what you see in real life. LE makes a mistake and the thin blue line lines right up to justify, excuse, and diminish. On the other hand, someone lawfully carrying makes a mistake and the CC community are the 1st and harshest critics, holding one another to the highest standard. While there are great individuals on both sides, you are charging them with being their best within a two class system. A double standard.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -Obligatory Founding Father Quote

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  3. #107
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    Well, I'm assuming that this was a park in the City of Pittsburgh. I think that cop was trying to have you avoid the inevitable IF somebody in the park does a MWAG 911 call on you.
    Understand that PA. STATE law is silent on "Open Carry" AKA it is not expressly forbidden so it's deemed OK by default only.

    But...as I have tried to tell you in a previous post there is a real Catch 22 with regard to Open Carry in Pittsburgh that should be addressed but, as of yet has not been addressed...and that would be that Pittsburgh CITY Police are required by CITY law to respond to all "Man With A Gun Calls" as if there is an armed threat to the general population.

    So if somebody drops a dime on you in PGH. and you ARE "The Man With The Gun" then you should very likely expect that 911 call to be responded to with PGH. S.W.A.T. team guns stuck in your face until they sort you out.

    That's NOT FAIR! and that's not right! But, Guess What? That's the way it is as far as real world reality in Pittsburgh. I think it's great if you want to be the guy that wants to get MWAGed - hire a top notch attorney and fight it all the way up to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

    I'm no longer living in Pittsburgh so it's not an issue for me anymore & I'm not weighing in Yea or Nay...I'm just telling you the way it is.

    So...I think that LEO was probably just trying to let you know that it's probably going to be less problematic (in general) if you just pop your shirt over it and cover it up.

    But, the bottom line is that you're an adult and as such you make your own adult decisions...for your better or for your worse.

    I will ask you one question though. When you are walking around in the City Of Pittsburgh on an average day...How many other people do you see walking around open carrying firearms?

    I can answer that question for you right now without even having spent much time IN Pittsburgh for for the past couple of years.

    The answer would be a big fat "0" - so decide if you want to be the guy changes all that and if you need donations to "fight the Catch 22 fight" I'll be more than happy to kick in some cash to help you out.

    I am serious about that.
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  4. #108
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Well, I'm assuming that this was a park in the City of Pittsburgh. I think that cop was trying to have you avoid the inevitable IF somebody in the park does a MWAG 911 call on you.
    Understand that PA. STATE law is silent on "Open Carry" AKA it is not expressly forbidden so it's deemed OK by default only.

    But...as I have tried to tell you in a previous post there is a real Catch 22 with regard to Open Carry in Pittsburgh that should be addressed but, as of yet has not been addressed...and that would be that Pittsburgh CITY Police are required by CITY law to respond to all "Man With A Gun Calls" as if there is an armed threat to the general population.

    So if somebody drops a dime on you in PGH. and you ARE "The Man With The Gun" then you should very likely expect that 911 call to be responded to with PGH. S.W.A.T. team guns stuck in your face until they sort you out.

    That's NOT FAIR! and that's not right! But, Guess What? That's the way it is as far as real world reality in Pittsburgh. I think it's great if you want to be the guy that wants to get MWAGed - hire a top notch attorney and fight it all the way up to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

    I'm no longer living in Pittsburgh so it's not an issue for me anymore & I'm not weighing in Yea or Nay...I'm just telling you the way it is.

    So...I think that LEO was probably just trying to let you know that it's probably going to be less problematic (in general) if you just pop your shirt over it and cover it up.

    But, the bottom line is that you're an adult and as such you make your own adult decisions...for your better or for your worse.

    I will ask you one question though. When you are walking around in the City Of Pittsburgh on an average day...How many other people do you see walking around open carrying firearms?

    I can answer that question for you right now without even having spent much time IN Pittsburgh for for the past couple of years.

    The answer would be a big fat "0" - so decide if you want to be the guy changes all that and if you need donations to "fight the Catch 22 fight" I'll be more than happy to kick in some cash to help you out.

    I am serious about that.
    I am trying to weigh whether or not I want to be that guy. I definitely appreciate your support. If I end up handcuffed on the sidewalk in Pittsburgh, I'll let you know (and post the wpxi or kdka news article here).
    "My problem with life is not that it is rational nor that it is irrational, but that it is almost rational." - G.K. Chesterton

  5. #109
    New Member Array MuchoUno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoboxer View Post
    I am not a LEO. Other than this officer's bold use of language and described demeanor (if OP documented it accurately), I agree with the officer's point. Many soccer moms would flip if they saw the man with a gun......why do you think there are so many instances of MWAG who is OC? Remember, that OC'ers are in the minority of gun owner's, let alone the general population....thus, the general population is unaware of the legality of it. Heck, there are even avid 2A supporters on this forum who don't even know about all their own state's laws.
    I agree with the officers point too. I just don't give a rip about his opinion and would invite him to keep it to himself. Nobody asked him what he thinks the law should be because he is neither judge, juror, nor legislator. If the law is inconvenient for him, Walmart can always use another greeter.
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  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuchoUno View Post
    I agree with the officers point too. I just don't give a rip about his opinion and would invite him to keep it to himself. Nobody asked him what he thinks the law should be because he is neither judge, juror, nor legislator. If the law is inconvenient for him, Walmart can always use another greeter.
    I understand your point and will respectfully disagree. You can't argue for rights when definition of those rights are open to interpretation by whoever is in power, or under the influence by mob rule,.....and then say people cannot express an opinion openly.

    One may say the officer was out of line because that is not his duty to speak his opinions, whereas I think it is if the point made is reasonable (understand I am not talking about this specific officer's described demeanor/language, just his point). I see this officer's choice to make his opinion known as a preventative measure. He didn't say he was going to stop Badey or that he could not have a gun, he just said it's best for Badey to take a different approach (in not so nice speak).

    The public is not used to it and weather or not you want to admit it or not, Hollywood and criminals have painted guns as the root to all evil. For those that do not legally carry at all in public (which is the majority), they are sensitive about it and it must be recognized when considering ones approach to enjoy the right to carry or protest. I am all for action to change the public opinion of firearms and open the door to freely express your rights without issue. The fact is, in most non-rural communities, this will be a challenge.

    Get organized, unify resources and start a public campaign to get the word out. Get some people on board who are intelligent and speak well, who can go meet with Law Enforcement heads, interview with the press, write an article, coordinate some events. Once a community gets buzzed with the info, maybe then is a time to keep it going by carrying more freely, because the table is set. I didn't say you should not at all challenge an officer ever, just be prepared that if he acts like the one in this story, he is not likely to be receptive like the far many more who are decent officers....but understand there needs to be tact, because defiance over a gun is not like defiance over a missed stop sign.

    I am of the opinion that too many people are silent in America. "Neighbors" hardly exist outside of rural areas anymore and communities are segregated from one house to the next. We have less decent people watching our backs and more speculation about who it is that surrounds us. People can't wait to watch another episode of these bullcrap "reality" TV shows, that are full of some of the worst in pop-society, but yet are afraid to engage a person on the street that is doing something wrong because it's "not my problem"..........but that's another long discussion.

    I'm fine with the officer being preventative and expressing his opinion, just would expect him to be more professional. People are people and their opinions don't bother me, unless I choose to let it.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
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  7. #111
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Seems to me America has gotten far too "politically correct". We have to be more concerned what others think. We can not ever hurt someone's feelings. We have to be guarded in what we say to people. We have to accept the fact that we have rights but just do not demand them. We have to compromise our beliefs so as not to upset someone that is sensitive.

    If the Constitution or law of the land or state allows something why should anyone have to compromise or go on defense. Specifically advocates of the 2nd amendment have been on defense for at least the last 20 years. We are looked on by many as tantamount to criminals. The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, Mayors Against Illegal Guns, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and all the other anti gun groups need to advocate for Crime Control and not Gun Control. They all know full well that keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens will not stop criminals from obtaining them. However what they are advocating now we leave us defenseless against the criminal element.
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  8. #112
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterAvis View Post
    You should expect to see on line what you see in real life. LE makes a mistake and the thin blue line lines right up to justify, excuse, and diminish. On the other hand, someone lawfully carrying makes a mistake and the CC community are the 1st and harshest critics, holding one another to the highest standard. While there are great individuals on both sides, you are charging them with being their best within a two class system. A double standard.
    What thin line? This is not an interpretation of an obscure law. The LEO knows the law. The LEO chooses to harass the OC'er. If the LEO did not want MWAG calls maybe he could best utilize his time educating the fearful soccer moms. I am not holding anyone to a high standard. I expect the LEO do know and do his job. Is that a high standard? LEO's on this site are the first to point out that LEO's are well trained, better than civilians in many things. Well, then how about they do not harrass folks legaly carrying? It isn;t that hard is it? The only standard I expect from someone OC'ing is to purposely seek out attention for his 2 minutes of you tube fame. And you know what, that makes the person an idiot, not a criminal. A right is a right. We all know RL you could get hauled and have LE make your life miserable. But isn;t that the point. Isn;t that why we should be behind the OC'er 100 percent so this crap will stop?

  9. #113
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    "But isn;t that the point. Isn;t that why we should be behind the OC'er 100 percent so this crap will stop?"

    Everyone on this forum could get behind this OCer 100% with all of their respective comments and everyone could post: "KUDOS! ~You Go Dude!" & that is still not going to alter the reality of the event that will unfold if some panicky lady in a Pittsburgh park does a MWAG call on him.
    Unfortunately I am resigned to live in the real world and can only give real world advice as to the way things are at this particular point in time in that city.
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  10. #114
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    "But isn;t that the point. Isn;t that why we should be behind the OC'er 100 percent so this crap will stop?"

    Everyone on this forum could get behind this OCer 100% with all of their respective comments and everyone could post: "KUDOS! ~You Go Dude!" & that is still not going to alter the reality of the event that will unfold if some panicky lady in a Pittsburgh park does a MWAG call on him.
    Unfortunately I am resigned to live in the real world and can only give real world advice as to the way things are at this particular point in time in that city.
    Respectfully, I live in the real world also. MWAG calls are different and have no problems with the officers showing up. It is their job. Has happened to me twice. But in the situation the OP experienced the officer decided to take his time to talk to the OP who was legal. My point is if LEO's want to interact with the public about OC'ing why not instruct them to go talk the soccer mom in the park and be proactive with her and tell her there is a guy with a gun and explain to her he is legal to carry. Or is that asking too much? And I am not saying to pat the dude on the back. Just support him with his rights.

    Oh wait a minute,,,that would actually make sense. Sorry about that. Guess I don't live in the RL

  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Respectfully, I live in the real world also. MWAG calls are different and have no problems with the officers showing up. It is their job. Has happened to me twice. But in the situation the OP experienced the officer decided to take his time to talk to the OP who was legal.
    My point is if LEO's want to interact with the public about OC'ing why not instruct them to go talk the soccer mom in the park and be proactive with her and tell her there is a guy with a gun and explain to her he is legal to carry.
    Or is that asking too much?
    And I am not saying to pat the dude on the back.
    Just support him with his rights. Oh wait a minute,,,that would actually make sense. Sorry about that. Guess I don't live in the RL

    I guess you don't.



    So if there are 100 other people using the park and facilities the LEO is going to walk up to them all and say what?

    "Excuse me Madame...I'm a PGH. Police Officer and I just want to let you know that there is a young man carrying a firearm in the park. It's perfectly legal for him to be openly carrying that firearm in the park so...I'm just letting you know that there is no need to get upset if you see him or the gun...Have a nice day!"

    "Excuse me Madame...I'm a PGH. Police Officer and I just want to let you know that there is a young man carrying a firearm in the park. It's perfectly legal for him to be openly carrying that firearm in the park so...I'm just letting you know that there is no need to get upset if you see him or the gun...Have a nice day!"

    "Excuse me Madame...I'm a PGH. Police Officer and I just want to let you know that there is a young man carrying a firearm in the park. It's perfectly legal for him to be openly carrying that firearm in the park so...I'm just letting you know that there is no need to get upset if you see him or the gun...Have a nice day!"

    "Excuse me Madame...I'm a PGH. Police Officer and I just want to let you know that there is a young man carrying a firearm in the park. It's perfectly legal for him to be openly carrying that firearm in the park so...I'm just letting you know that there is no need to get upset if you see him or the gun...Have a nice day!"

    "Excuse me Madame...I'm a PGH. Police Officer and I just want to let you know that there is a young man carrying a firearm in the park. It's perfectly legal for him to be openly carrying that firearm in the park so...I'm just letting you know that there is no need to get upset if you see him or the gun...Have a nice day!"


    "Excuse me Madame...I'm a PGH. Police Officer and I just want to let you know that there is a young man carrying a firearm in the park. It's perfectly legal for him to be openly carrying that firearm in the park so...I'm just letting you know that there is no need to get upset if you see him or the gun...Have a nice day!"


    "Excuse me Madame...I'm a PGH. Police Officer and I just want to let you know that there is a young man carrying a firearm in the park. It's perfectly legal for him to be openly carrying that firearm in the park so...I'm just letting you know that there is no need to get upset if you see him or the gun...Have a nice day!"

    "Excuse me Madame...I'm a PGH. Police Officer and I just want to let you know that there is a young man carrying a firearm in the park. It's perfectly legal for him to be openly carrying that firearm in the park so...I'm just letting you know that there is no need to get upset if you see him or the gun...Have a nice day!"

    "Excuse me Madame...I'm a PGH. Police Officer and I just want to let you know that there is a young man carrying a firearm in the park. It's perfectly legal for him to be openly carrying that firearm in the park so...I'm just letting you know that there is no need to get upset if you see him or the gun...Have a nice day!"



    Times 50 or 100 - Sure makes sense to me.

  12. #116
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    @QK:I am not going to argue the point. If someone is OC'ing and a LEO wants to ask why fine. But to have a prolonged conversation with him and convincing him to forgo his rights is IMO plain wrong. We can disagree on this OK.

  13. #117
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    That's fine but, that is not what you said and I can only react to what folks actually type. What you typed was:

    "My point is if LEO's want to interact with the public about OC'ing why not instruct them to go talk the soccer mom in the park and be proactive with her and tell her there is a guy with a gun and explain to her he is legal to carry.
    Or is that asking too much?"

    And my point was that if there are 50 or 75 or 100 other people in the park...that would be asking too much.

    Peace, Love, and war is not healthy for children and other living things.

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    I could be wrong, but I believe stuntzu was saying that if a soccer mom made an MWAG call, then the officer needs to explain the legality of OC to the caller.

    What intrigues me is how so many people on the forum say that OC will freak everybody out, making multiple MWAG calls, etc. MWAG calls for OC are pretty rare. They always get reported, so it seems like they occur more often than they do. If you go to opencarry.org, look in the Virginia section (for example), and there are hundreds of pages where people share their normal, everyday OC experience. Guess what. Negative attention in general is pretty rare, much less something to the point of an MWAG call. It just doesn't happen that often.

  15. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    That's fine but, that is not what you said and I can only react to what folks actually type. What you typed was:

    "My point is if LEO's want to interact with the public about OC'ing why not instruct them to go talk the soccer mom in the park and be proactive with her and tell her there is a guy with a gun and explain to her he is legal to carry.
    Or is that asking too much?"

    And my point was that if there are 50 or 75 or 100 other people in the park...that would be asking too much.

    Peace, Love, and war is not healthy for children and other living things.
    I think you're being a bit facetious. There are many ways to communicate to the public. Put out flyers or respond only to the freaked out few who call it in. The cop wasted the OP'ers time. It wasn't citizen to citizen contact simply to offer an opinion. It was armed intimidation. That's where I invite these types of cops to keep it to themselves.

  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuchoUno View Post
    I think you're being a bit facetious. There are many ways to communicate to the public. Put out flyers or respond only to the freaked out few who call it in. The cop wasted the OP'ers time. It wasn't citizen to citizen contact simply to offer an opinion. It was armed intimidation. That's where I invite these types of cops to keep it to themselves.
    Not sure if you meant for the LEO's to put out flyers, but it would not be their job. That would be a role of a person trying to bring attention to it, such as an OC group. In all truth, there are very few people who actually OC, and even fewer who do it everywhere. It does not make sense for a Govt. department to allocate funds to campaign for acceptance of a law that effects so little. It is the job of the department to use resources to train dispatchers who receive MWAG calls, & train officers who hold up the law.....that is a reasonable expectation of your local LE department.
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