Kid arrested openly carrying rifle in Birmingham, MI - no laws broken that I can tell

This is a discussion on Kid arrested openly carrying rifle in Birmingham, MI - no laws broken that I can tell within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The cited comment on MOC is a relatively new thing and in response to a bonehead thinking it was a good idea to antagonize in ...

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Thread: Kid arrested openly carrying rifle in Birmingham, MI - no laws broken that I can tell

  1. #46
    Member Array skunkworks's Avatar
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    The cited comment on MOC is a relatively new thing and in response to a bonehead thinking it was a good idea to antagonize in a public library. The organization did have several rallies, picnics, etc... where open carry of long guns was encouraged (one outside the state capitol if memory serves). That really makes no difference though. Whether MOC supports OC of long guns or not does not make it more or less legal.

    I'm still on the side of "bad idea" to do this, but I'm wondering about what CMIKE states about being over 18 to open carry a firearm; a handgun yes, but not so sure about a long gun. After all, I think I was 16 when I purchased my first deer rifle on my own. My parents weren't even in the store. Given that even today a minor can hunt without supervision would seem to support that someone who looked a little young could in fact possess and carry a long gun. Can you show in the law where carrying a long gun while under 18 is illegal? It may be there, but I don't see it.
    I'll keep my freedom, my liberty, and my guns. You can keep the change.

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  3. #47
    Member Array cmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    Police Chief Magazine - View Article

    The quote and source say that the police MAY have RAS if the person in question appears to be a minor. It may or may not be RAS, hence my comment that the question is whether or not the kid was legally obliged to produce his ID.
    Not obeying a lawful command is disorderly conduct.

  4. #48
    Ex Member Array Snatale42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmike View Post
    The OC activists seem to think he is a martyr.
    I'm an OC activist and I think this kid is an idiot. Nobody I know that OC's would blame the cop for doing his job in that same situation.

  5. #49
    Ex Member Array Snatale42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    The quote and source say that the police MAY have RAS if the person in question appears to be a minor. It may or may not be RAS, hence my comment that the question is whether or not the kid was legally obliged to produce his ID.
    Even if he wasn't required to produce a physical ID, you still need to identify yourself even if it's verbally.
    Hopyard likes this.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmike View Post
    Not obeying a lawful command is disorderly conduct.
    The command is only lawful if there is RAS.
    "All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse, and a good wife." - Daniel Boone

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snatale42 View Post
    Even if he wasn't required to produce a physical ID, you still need to identify yourself even if it's verbally.
    Maybe in Virginia, but I do not believe that is the case in Michigan.
    "All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse, and a good wife." - Daniel Boone

  8. #52
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    Badey. From a simple self defense standpoint, if attacked do you really think the guy could have unslung the rifle and engaged a target? Now I am assuming that an 18 year old has not had a lot of training or experience in the matter.

    Skunkworks not disagreeing MOC's views matter not in a point of law. Yes it would be good to know if the law says "Over 18" it would simplify things a lot.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  9. #53
    Member Array cmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skunkworks View Post
    The cited comment on MOC is a relatively new thing and in response to a bonehead thinking it was a good idea to antagonize in a public library. The organization did have several rallies, picnics, etc... where open carry of long guns was encouraged (one outside the state capitol if memory serves). That really makes no difference though. Whether MOC supports OC of long guns or not does not make it more or less legal.

    I'm still on the side of "bad idea" to do this, but I'm wondering about what CMIKE states about being over 18 to open carry a firearm; a handgun yes, but not so sure about a long gun. After all, I think I was 16 when I purchased my first deer rifle on my own. My parents weren't even in the store. Given that even today a minor can hunt without supervision would seem to support that someone who looked a little young could in fact possess and carry a long gun. Can you show in the law where carrying a long gun while under 18 is illegal? It may be there, but I don't see it.
    Michigan Legislature - Section 750.234f

    Possession of firearm by person less than 18 years of age; exceptions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234f.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), an individual less than 18 years of age shall not possess a firearm in public except under the direct supervision of an individual 18 years of age or older.

    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to an individual less than 18 years of age who possesses a firearm in accordance with part 401 (wildlife conservation) of the natural resources and environmental protection act, Act No. 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.40101 to 324.40119 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, or part 435 (hunting and fishing licensing) of Act No. 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.43501 to 324.43561 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. However, an individual less than 18 years of age may possess a firearm without a hunting license while at, or going to or from, a recognized target range or trap or skeet shooting ground if, while going to or from the range or ground, the firearm is enclosed and securely fastened in a case or locked in the trunk of a motor vehicle.

    (3) An individual who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

  10. #54
    Member Array cmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    The command is only lawful if there is RAS.
    Very true. The reasonable suspicion occurred because he looks very young.


    The link below has a picture of the little snot.

    The Daily Tribune - Troy man arrested after carrying rifle in Birmingham

  11. #55
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    Well there you go guys in text from the state statute.

    You have to be 18 if you are under the age of 18 it is a crime. Now unless your age is tattooed on your forhead and can be confirmed from a distance then the only other option for the officers is to approach and ask. This shows that there was in fact reasonable suspicion for the officers to approach and verify his age.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Badey. From a simple self defense standpoint, if attacked do you really think the guy could have unslung the rifle and engaged a target? Now I am assuming that an 18 year old has not had a lot of training or experience in the matter.
    I'm not sure... It would definitely take longer than a pistol. Having said that, the first rule of a gun fight is to bring a gun.... I agree that it is not very practical in many situations, but if I were inclined to mess with someone who is armed (which I am not), I wouldn't pick the guy with the rifle...
    "All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse, and a good wife." - Daniel Boone

  13. #57
    Member Array mandpeter's Avatar
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    this is what gets oc'ers arrested every time. they saw oh the police dont have a right to ask for my id..... yes they do. if you're a convicted felon you can't be in possession of a firearm. so no, youre not doing something illegal, but you could be. I dont understand why people dont just hand over their liscense for 5 minutes rather than being hauled to jail so they can exercise their rights. with rights come responsibility. and what is not cooperating with leos accomplishing? nothing. just my thoughts. its the same as if your concealed gun is exposed and an officer asks for your cpl. of course you comply. you've exercised the right to carry and you have to be responsible with it.

  14. #58
    Member Array cmike's Avatar
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    Actually if there is no reasonble suspicion they don't have to hand over the ID.

    In this case there was.

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandpeter View Post
    this is what gets oc'ers arrested every time. they saw oh the police dont have a right to ask for my id..... yes they do. if you're a convicted felon you can't be in possession of a firearm. so no, youre not doing something illegal, but you could be. I dont understand why people dont just hand over their liscense for 5 minutes rather than being hauled to jail so they can exercise their rights. with rights come responsibility. and what is not cooperating with leos accomplishing? nothing. just my thoughts. its the same as if your concealed gun is exposed and an officer asks for your cpl. of course you comply. you've exercised the right to carry and you have to be responsible with it.
    Some of us feel that it is worth the hassle to protect our rights. If we keep giving in, how long will it be until we hear, "papers please" like people did in Soviet Russia??

    And actually, the only time police have the right to ask you for ID is if the suspect you of committing a crime. Here in PA, just open carrying is not reasonable suspicion, therefore you DO NOT have to comply if they ask for ID, unless they suspect you of committing some other crime, and they are able to reasonably articulate the crime they suspect you of committing.
    "All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse, and a good wife." - Daniel Boone

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmike View Post
    Actually if there is no reasonble suspicion they don't have to hand over the ID.

    In this case there was.
    The more I mull this case over, the more I am inclined to agree with you on this.
    "All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse, and a good wife." - Daniel Boone

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