question for Wisconsin CCW's

This is a discussion on question for Wisconsin CCW's within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have a Wisconsin question that others might be interested in. The Wisconsin statutes state that the sign a business displays against firearms must be ...

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Thread: question for Wisconsin CCW's

  1. #1
    Member Array jzorn's Avatar
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    question for Wisconsin CCW's

    I have a Wisconsin question that others might be interested in. The Wisconsin statutes state that the sign a business displays against firearms must be 5" x 7". Most signs I've seen are smaller than that. What are the ramifications of the business not following the law? Is the sign legal? Can you carry in that business because they didn't follow state law?
    Thanks

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    NO, if the sign is not to the specs of the law then it is an illegal sign. the best advice is don't kiss and tell. what they don't know won’t hurt you or them

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    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    However if you end up in front of one of the many DA's that have sworn to lock up any CC holder they can.
    This is how it will go down. The sign met the intent and your are guilty. You may win in the end but it is going to cost you.
    It can take a few years to get to the State Supreme court.

  5. #4
    Member Array jzorn's Avatar
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    Thanks for the answers so far. I just noticed that at the local mall, they have a 5"x7" sign that reads "No Concealed weapons allowed". I'm assuming that this means that I can open carry since Wisconsin is an open carry state.

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    Ex Member Array Armey's Avatar
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    I even seen some small typed lettered signs on doors that I cannot read without glasses on no weapons. It maybe a card thats 5 x7, but worthless.

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    A sign must be at least five inches by seven inches that states the restriction on carrying a firearm. Wis. Stat. 943.13(2)(bm)1.

    The law permits certain owners and occupants of property to prohibit persons from carrying a concealed firearm in or on the property. A person may be subject to a Class B forfeiture if he or she carries a firearm on the property after being notified not to remain on the property or remain with a specific type of firearm. In the latter case, a property owner can prohibit a person form possessing a specific type of firearm on their property or any firearm. Wis. Stat. 943.13(1m)(b).

    As previously stated in some locales in Wisconsin the sign size won't much matter to the police or the DA. Granted you might get a judge to throw out any charges due to sign size. Question is do you want to spend the money.

    No matter what size the sign is it is obvious the business does not allow weapons. A business has a right to ask you to leave if they somehow know you have a weapon however they also have a right to call the police. Again if police come it can possibly turn into a nightmare. Best way to handle such signs, go to establishments that do not post. Businesses that post are in the minority so it should not be an inconvenience to go elsewhere. Granted there are places you will have to go that are posted, such as hospitals, clinics, etc.
    MrBuckwheat likes this.
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
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    Member Array CaptainHaplo's Avatar
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    This reminds me of the discussion I have been having with our corporate security folks....

    Here is the thing.... We want and expect people to respect our constitutional rights to carry legally - whether openly or concealed.
    Yet some are asking if it is "ok" to violate the KNOWN wishes of a private citizen on their property by carrying.... Can anyone see the utter failure here?

    The right to own (and control what happens on) your own property is just as important and we as RESPONSIBLE gun owners have a duty to respect that. If we don't, how can we expect others to respect our rights? C'mon people - use your heads here....

    If you KNOW - regardless of the size of the sign - that the policy of the business is to not allow weapons, don't carry in that establishment. To do so is spitting on THEIR rights on THEIR property just so you can flaunt yours. That is just as wrong as a business calling the cops to hassle you without posting a sign.

    You want to make an impression that is positive. Don't carry - but go into the store and ask to speak with or get contact info for the owner. When you speak with them, explain you carry, but respect their rights and thus did not in their business. Advise them that the sign does not meet the requirements. By showing respect, you are very likely to open a door to help better educate them.

    You will never do well if you expect everyone to respect your rights but your willing to trample on theirs....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    A sign must be at least five inches by seven inches that states the restriction on carrying a firearm. Wis. Stat. 943.13(2)(bm)1.

    The law permits certain owners and occupants of property to prohibit persons from carrying a concealed firearm in or on the property. A person may be subject to a Class B forfeiture if he or she carries a firearm on the property after being notified not to remain on the property or remain with a specific type of firearm. In the latter case, a property owner can prohibit a person form possessing a specific type of firearm on their property or any firearm. Wis. Stat. 943.13(1m)(b).

    As previously stated in some locales in Wisconsin the sign size won't much matter to the police or the DA. Granted you might get a judge to throw out any charges due to sign size. Question is do you want to spend the money.

    No matter what size the sign is it is obvious the business does not allow weapons. A business has a right to ask you to leave if they somehow know you have a weapon however they also have a right to call the police. Again if police come it can possibly turn into a nightmare. Best way to handle such signs, go to establishments that do not post. Businesses that post are in the minority so it should not be an inconvenience to go elsewhere. Granted there are places you will have to go that are posted, such as hospitals, clinics, etc.
    x2 thanks Crowman! We have to set a good example for the others!
    Don't be "that guy" ( the one who gives us a black eye)
    Talk or send a letter to the owner or manager. If they don't want you to conceal carry then it is up to you to decide to go there or not.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo View Post
    This reminds me of the discussion I have been having with our corporate security folks....

    Here is the thing.... We want and expect people to respect our constitutional rights to carry legally - whether openly or concealed.
    Yet some are asking if it is "ok" to violate the KNOWN wishes of a private citizen on their property by carrying.... Can anyone see the utter failure here?

    The right to own (and control what happens on) your own property is just as important and we as RESPONSIBLE gun owners have a duty to respect that. If we don't, how can we expect others to respect our rights? C'mon people - use your heads here....

    If you KNOW - regardless of the size of the sign - that the policy of the business is to not allow weapons, don't carry in that establishment. To do so is spitting on THEIR rights on THEIR property just so you can flaunt yours. That is just as wrong as a business calling the cops to hassle you without posting a sign.

    You want to make an impression that is positive. Don't carry - but go into the store and ask to speak with or get contact info for the owner. When you speak with them, explain you carry, but respect their rights and thus did not in their business. Advise them that the sign does not meet the requirements. By showing respect, you are very likely to open a door to help better educate them.

    You will never do well if you expect everyone to respect your rights but your willing to trample on theirs....
    I agree with you with two caveats. If they take away my right to protect myself, THEY assume the responsibility to ensure my safety while I am on their property. Secondly, why would I help them legally ban guns from their premises by telling them their signs are not up to legal specs??
    "My problem with life is not that it is rational nor that it is irrational, but that it is almost rational." - G.K. Chesterton

  11. #10
    Member Array CaptainHaplo's Avatar
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    While you have the right to protect yourself, that right does not supercede the rights of a private property owner. The foundation of this nation is based on property rights - heck even the right to OWN a firearm - comes from property rights. This is why its so hard for the gc crowd to do away with the right entirely - because you can OWN things. Yes, on his property, he is responsible for your safety. But its your CHOICE to enter that establishment or not - so its your choice to voluntarily and temporarily not exercise that right via firearm (though you can still defend yourself as you are able). I agree with Crowman - if its an issue for you, support a business that allows you to carry. I sure as heck do!

    As to the second - why would you tell them the sign isn't legal? Easy. Its how you start a conversation.

    You: Hi, business owner - Ted Jones here. I wanted to buy something from your store the other day, but I felt I should go to a competitor. Would you like to know why?
    Owner: Absolutely - what kept you from buying from us?
    You: I was stopped right before I walked in. That little sign on your door that doesn't let me carry my firearm. And I do mean little - its not big enough to meet the standards required by law, you know. But I respect your right to not want a firearm on your property. Still, its sad because folks like me respect the law, and your rights. Its the criminals that won't give 2 cents for the sign that you need to worry about, not us law abiding citizens. I mean, even Wal-Mart and starbucks respect our rights to carry on their premesis here because its legal and safe. So I went to _______ store instead.
    Owner: Well, I don't like guns or my property.
    You: I understand that. Its why I respected your sign and your rights, even though it didn't meet the letter of the law. You see, those of us that choose to have a firearm understand that we have to be responsible and respectful. You know that sign won't stop a robber. Folk's like me, we just want to be able to protect ourselves and our families should bad things happen. Its up to you to decide if you want folks like me as a customer. Think about it. I'd love to walk by next time and see that sign gone so I could stop in.

    Go from there... No one will ever change their mindset unless they are engaged on the topic. Sure, he might just get a bigger sign - but did that really change anything? No - but he might just take it down after an ambassador of common sense helps him learn.....Business owners are people too - and people are often way too uneducated about this subject. Oh - and on the whole "go into the store but don't carry" - you can just as easily do this over the phone. I would likely just call instead of going to the car, locking up and walking back. The point is this - you can open doors with respect - but disrespect will only close them.
    jrclen likes this.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    I agree with you with two caveats. If they take away my right to protect myself, THEY assume the responsibility to ensure my safety while I am on their property. Secondly, why would I help them legally ban guns from their premises by telling them their signs are not up to legal specs??
    Badey no one is taking our right to carry/protect yourself on your property, others property(that do not post), walking down the street and many other places. As stated previously businesses, property owners also have a right to ban weapons on their property.

    As for talking the other owner, it was just a suggestion. As far as Wisconsin goes and if someone is concerned enough they might want to explain the law to the owner. Explain to the owner that under Wisconsin law posting a sign means that they could possibly open themselves up to civil lawsuits of someone is injured/killed on their property. Explain that by not posting they are immune from civil lawsuits.

    Unfortunately the rights of the 2nd amendment will never be as simple as the right to religion or free speech. There will always be more restrictions on the 2nd amendment. Actually all one needs to look at the 1st amendments and the restrictions that have placed on free speech over the more recent years.

    Simply put, do not patronize businesses that post and your right to carry/protect yourself will be intact.
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    In the state of Texas the sign has to read a certain way to be prosecuted for carrying on restricted property.
    He is NOT in Texas! Please Stay ON TOPIC to signs in Wisconsin.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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