Ga man just won the OC/cop lottery

This is a discussion on Ga man just won the OC/cop lottery within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 Absolutely. Whether a man's conduct is right or wrong, moral or immoral, is not determined by the laws of his ...

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Thread: Ga man just won the OC/cop lottery

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    Absolutely. Whether a man's conduct is right or wrong, moral or immoral, is not determined by the laws of his jurisdiction. You can be right without being legal, and you can be a dirtbag and still remain completely within the law.

    In the 2 links provided by suntzu, those citizens would have been doing absolutely nothing illegal or wrong in my home state. However, a man trolling for confrontation in the hopes of a "payday" or internet notoriety is a douchebag in all 50 states, if you ask me.

    Do you base your idea of right and wrong on the letter of the law in your little corner of the world, or do you take a broader view? Just because one can legally act like a smarmy little punk does not make the conduct noble or correct. I can't even fathom living a life with such a ridiculous siege mentality that I'd have to carry a voice recorder around with me. Funny how these OC advocates just "minding their own business" seem to get caught up in situations like this. Quite the coincidence, I think.
    First, as I have pointed out, but you did not address, you are making a lot of assumptions about this guy in particular, and OCers in general. If the guy was trying to make trouble, it would not have taken him a year of walking at the same park OCing to find it.

    If you don't like OC, that is your business (and by the way you describe OCers in general, and this guy in particular, it is pretty obvious that you don't), but instead of making ignorant comments, how about reading the threads where OCers minding their own business get ARRESTED or DETAINED. This is why a lot of OCers carry voice recorders. Their rights get trampled on sometimes and they want to be able to defend themselves (as I have also already said on this thread, but you also did not address this either).
    "My problem with life is not that it is rational nor that it is irrational, but that it is almost rational." - G.K. Chesterton

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Vaquero 45
    Absolutely. Whether a man's conduct is right or wrong, moral or immoral, is not determined by the laws of his jurisdiction. You can be right without being legal, and you can be a dirtbag and still remain completely within the law.

    In the 2 links provided by suntzu, those citizens would have been doing absolutely nothing illegal or wrong in my home state. However, a man trolling for confrontation in the hopes of a "payday" or internet notoriety is a douchebag in all 50 states, if you ask me.

    Do you base your idea of right and wrong on the letter of the law in your little corner of the world, or do you take a broader view? Just because one can legally act like a smarmy little punk does not make the conduct noble or correct. I can't even fathom living a life with such a ridiculous siege mentality that I'd have to carry a voice recorder around with me. Funny how these OC advocates just "minding their own business" seem to get caught up in situations like this. Quite the coincidence, I think.
    I can agree with you that the guy is probably a douchebag. I would hope that we can also agree that if he broke no laws his douchebagness should be of no concern to police. Do we really want the government to be able to make up charges and to harass citizens that are being idiots? Do we want them to actively look for something to charge a person with when the activity they are engaging in,while offensive to them,is not illegal? Or, do we want the government to follow the laws and only enforce the laws enacted by the legislature?

    Michael
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  4. #48
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I can agree with you that the guy is probably a douchebag. I would hope that we can also agree that if he broke no laws his douchebagness should be of no concern to police. Do we really want the government to be able to make up charges and to harass citizens that are being idiots? Do we want them to actively look for something to charge a person with when the activity they are engaging in,while offensive to them,is not illegal? Or, do we want the government to follow the laws and only enforce the laws enacted by the legislature?

    Michael
    The police absolutely have the authority to check on unusual or suspicious behavior, to check for criminal activity. This is very incident specific, of course, but I am less than willing to give the benefit of the doubt to loudmouths who carry voice recorders around with them and get off on taunting the police and doing their best to refuse to cooperate. This idiot likely talked himself into going to jail. Whether the arrest was legitimate or not depends on the exact circumstances of the incident and the laws of the jurisdiction. Voice recorders don't record physical actions, so no one here knows exactly what happened, or if the recorder was turned on and off during the interaction.

    It's pretty obvious to me that this guy wanted to go to jail. Might have taken him a year, but he finally found his little scenario, and now he's an internet martyr. He probably could have been polite and cooperative, then filed a complaint later after being released, but that doesn't make a very good message board thread, now does it?
    Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    I'm wondering what it would take for you to ever see the side of someone OC'ing. Really? How else do you think he might prove he was wronged if he was? Or am I to assume that you could care less if he was wronged since he was OC'ing?

    Personally, I don't carry a recorder. I've considered it. But I've got enough crap in my pockets. If I had a smart phone I would certainly have the app. But my experience with local LE has been mostly professional in regards to OC. Talked to a few cops on my property, at a couple stores, and during an accident with no issues. Currently, I'm assuming that history will continue. If I ever get the feeling it is changing, I will get a recorder.

    I will carry a recorder if I feel the need to before I give up my RIGHT to OC. You may be willing to give up my rights for me, but I certainly am not.
    Based on this logic, I should fire up the app on the smart phone just to go to my local party store. To answer your question, I have OCed. Part of the time it was good. The rest, well, I have been proned out a few times and I live in an OC state. To be honest, its not worth the hassle. I have other things to think about while carrying, and dealing with the police is not one of them.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    The police absolutely have the authority to check on unusual or suspicious behavior, to check for criminal activity. This is very incident specific, of course, but I am less than willing to give the benefit of the doubt to loudmouths who carry voice recorders around with them and get off on taunting the police and doing their best to refuse to cooperate. This idiot likely talked himself into going to jail. Whether the arrest was legitimate or not depends on the exact circumstances of the incident and the laws of the jurisdiction. Voice recorders don't record physical actions, so no one here knows exactly what happened, or if the recorder was turned on and off during the interaction.

    It's pretty obvious to me that this guy wanted to go to jail. Might have taken him a year, but he finally found his little scenario, and now he's an internet martyr. He probably could have been polite and cooperative, then filed a complaint later after being released, but that doesn't make a very good message board thread, now does it?
    Wow. First you say nobody here knows exactly what happened then you pretty much fill in all the blanks for us. What we have BY THE STORY is a guy that is OCing, has been doing so for some time, there was no MWAG call, a security guard seems to have gotten the law wrong, detains the guy, and it took this guy a year to get thrown in jail which according to you was what he wanted? Wow is all I can say.
    Now, I am not saying the guy is a jerk. But the fact is he was not doing anything wrong until the security gaurd got involved. And I will say again, these incidents do not do much to sway folks that are sitting on the fence about the 2nd A. They just do not make the national news and at the local level are 24 hour stories. Only in gun forums and the Brady bunch type forums do they keep pestering. What sways folks that are sitiing on the fence are cases like Zimmerman, or Columbine, or, Ft Hood shootings, or Junior Saeu committing suicide, or anything that makes national news.
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  7. #51
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Based on this logic, I should fire up the app on the smart phone just to go to my local party store. To answer your question, I have OCed. Part of the time it was good. The rest, well, I have been proned out a few times and I live in an OC state. To be honest, its not worth the hassle. I have other things to think about while carrying, and dealing with the police is not one of them.
    Morning Harry I am always ready to start recording if I feel it might be needed. 90 percent of the times I have had interaction with LEO's they have been positive. But 2 times they were not (LEO wanting to search my car and one time a cop just being a D-bag lecturing me that I was not special and entitles to no special treatment because I was in the military). Both times I was polite and courteous. Anyway, that is why I do in fact carry a recording device (iPhone) and ready to use. And in my previous post I said the guy has been doing this for a yeaar. If he was looking for trouble he is not very good at it. BTW: We close on the new property and house on Friday unless anything goes wrong. I will PM ya.

    Almost forgot. I have had two MWAG calls on me (from the same idiot) both times went good. LEO's stpped asked who I was. (Did not ask for ID). I politley talked told them I was just going for a walk and moved in recently. Second time they didn't even get out. They just rolled down a window and said "sorry, we got a call and we have to check it out". That was it.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Morning Harry I am always ready to start recording if I feel it might be needed. 90 percent of the times I have had interaction with LEO's they have been positive. But 2 times they were not (LEO wanting to search my car and one time a cop just being a D-bag lecturing me that I was not special and entitles to no special treatment because I was in the military). Both times I was polite and courteous. Anyway, that is why I do in fact carry a recording device (iPhone) and ready to use. And in my previous post I said the guy has been doing this for a yeaar. If he was looking for trouble he is not very good at it. BTW: We close on the new property and house on Friday unless anything goes wrong. I will PM ya.

    Almost forgot. I have had two MWAG calls on me (from the same idiot) both times went good. LEO's stpped asked who I was. (Did not ask for ID). I politley talked told them I was just going for a walk and moved in recently. Second time they didn't even get out. They just rolled down a window and said "sorry, we got a call and we have to check it out". That was it.
    Morning Sun I refuse to carry a device to record others, just cant do it. I have had some really bad things happen while open carrying. At this point its easier just to cover it up and go about life with out worrying about recording PD and having interactions with them. My days of making points, for the sake of making points are over.

    I hope the house deal goes well. Its always fun and exciting to get a new place. Good luck Bro...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Based on this logic, I should fire up the app on the smart phone just to go to my local party store. To answer your question, I have OCed. Part of the time it was good. The rest, well, I have been proned out a few times and I live in an OC state. To be honest, its not worth the hassle. I have other things to think about while carrying, and dealing with the police is not one of them.
    Don't you have a problem with the idea that the government chooses uses its power to forcefully convince you that it is not in your best interests to exercise the rights you were born with? Not only that but they then convince us that we are the ones in the wrong when we do exercise them.
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  10. #54
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I won't comment on this case as I wasn't there, haven't heard the recording, etc., but there is a huge misconception as far as identifying one's self to LEOs and producing ID.

    If I'm carrying a CW, in FL I must have ID (DL, ST ID, etc.) and produce it upon demand along with my CWFL if requested. The CWFL itself is not a form of identification. Likewise, If I'm driving, I must produce a DL if requested. However, if I'm simply walking around, legal in all aspects, no state/federal law that I'm aware of requires I carry identification. If requested to identify myself by authorities, a simple verbal statement (I am OldVet) is sufficient identification. There was a federal case years ago in CA where police harassed and arrested a guy for not carrying ID. He won in court, which ruled not possessing a form of ID was not a violation of law.
    I understand that you are not REQUIRED to provide ID if you're simply walking around. My point is..if the guy really just wants to hike in the park while open carrying he should have been polite and showed identification immediately. If you want to promote open carry make the issue open carry not identification. In many of the vids I've seen the issue really isn't about open carry, it's about the fact that the open carrier refuses to show ID. I just wonder how differently this would have gone had the guy showed some ID right away and then politely asked what law he was violating.
    I'm sure many here will disagree, but I feel that if you're going to walk around in public openly displaying a firearm you should be required to carry some form of identification.
    Don't be surprised if your state legislature throws this requirement in the mix when they're dreaming up new laws next year.
    BTW....You can get a state issued ID even if you don't drive.......
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
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  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Don't you have a problem with the idea that the government chooses uses its power to forcefully convince you that it is not in your best interests to exercise the rights you were born with? Not only that but they then convince us that we are the ones in the wrong when we do exercise them.
    I do have a problem with over reaching government. However, there are so many other issues that are more important than OCing, especially considering that I can conceal it with out any issue. Im not the guy thats going to go out a make a point with my gun on my hip...I have to much invested in life, to allow some government official to ruin it. Understand what I mean now. If you want to carry the torch that is fine. Im not going to.....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  12. #56
    Member Array gigamortis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    The same question is often posed to folks who refuse to permit searches. If they would just cooperate they would make the governments job much easier.

    Michael
    And now we have the TSA.....

    Feel any safer, now?

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I do have a problem with over reaching government. However, there are so many other issues that are more important than OCing, especially considering that I can conceal it with out any issue. Im not the guy thats going to go out a make a point with my gun on my hip...I have to much invested in life, to allow some government official to ruin it. Understand what I mean now. If you want to carry the torch that is fine. Im not going to.....
    I also at times choose not to bear the torch. Sometimes I take the easy way out and choose not to rock the boat. So yes, I fully understand your meaning in that regards.
    Where I think we disagree is that I take from some of your posts that others should not rock that boat either. That when they do and the weight of the government comes down on them, well they got what they deserved or at the very least they brought it on themselves.
    Myself I am glad that others decide to rock the boat for me when I decide to take the easy path.

    If I am incorrect in my understanding of your posts I apologize.

    Michael

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I also at times choose not to bear the torch. Sometimes I take the easy way out and choose not to rock the boat. So yes, I fully understand your meaning in that regards.
    Where I think we disagree is that I take from some of your posts that others should not rock that boat either. That when they do and the weight of the government comes down on them, well they got what they deserved or at the very least they brought it on themselves.
    Myself I am glad that others decide to rock the boat for me when I decide to take the easy path.

    If I am incorrect in my understanding of your posts I apologize.

    Michael
    I really do not believe some of the OCers that pull stunts with video cams and recorders do us any good. So I guess in a way I believe that we shouldnt rock the boat. It doesnt look good for any of us. You understood my posts correctly. I rocked the boat, and when I did, I was proned out with guns pointed at me, then cuffed and so forth. IMO its better to keep it covered up.

    We are not that far apart on this. I do not believe OC is wrong, its that in my location (Lansing Mi) it is not a good idea. Whether legal or not, people around here are still getting crap from the Local PD. It makes the news and we all look bad.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I really do not believe some of the OCers that pull stunts with video cams and recorders do us any good. So I guess in a way I believe that we shouldnt rock the boat. It doesnt look good for any of us. You understood my posts correctly. I rocked the boat, and when I did, I was proned out with guns pointed at me, then cuffed and so forth. IMO its better to keep it covered up.

    We are not that far apart on this. I do not believe OC is wrong, its that in my location (Lansing Mi) it is not a good idea. Whether legal or not, people around here are still getting crap from the Local PD. It makes the news and we all look bad.
    It does put us in a bad light to most ordinary citizens. This tells me that most citizens are perfectly happy with the government abusing its power. The government knows this and uses it to their advantage. Its strange that those being abused are the ones the media shows to be wrong and the ones abusing their power and ignoring the law are portrayed as the good guys.

    Michael
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  16. #60
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    It does put us in a bad light to most ordinary citizens. This tells me that most citizens are perfectly happy with the government abusing its power. The government knows this and uses it to their advantage. Its strange that those being abused are the ones the media shows to be wrong and the ones abusing their power and ignoring the law are portrayed as the good guys.

    Michael
    Yep, this I cant disagree with....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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