A gun on your hip makes you a target...

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  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array shadowwalker's Avatar
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    WHAT ???????

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Unfortunately those things do make you a target, while criminals are often referred to as predators they are not typically the lion wolf variety of predator. More like carrion eaters (I AM NOT implying you or I for that matter are carrion) jackals and vultures looking for the weakest most vulnerable prey. Being a mature woman with a limp and cane implies that you are vulnerable and defenseless. Just as being an old man with a limp and cane makes me look like prey. Being armed is what makes us equal to the 300 pound buff gorilla fresh out of the joint looking to take his rage out on someone.
    So true. One of the main reasons I carry and have for years. No fluffy dinner here for the predators among us.

    I may or may not win, but I will put up one hell of a fight they won't soon forget. A couple of the elements to the success of self defense is resolve and mind set.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
    Susan B. Anthony
    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
    Robert Heinlein

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array Phaedrus's Avatar
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    I fully support someone if they want to OC but I wouldn't want to do it. Being visibly armed may cause a would-be scuzzball to go elsewhere or it may encourage him to go in guns blazing and try to take me out first. I'd rather be a bit more discrete. It's like the scene in Game of Thrones where Ned Stark is talking to Jamie Lannister. Stark explains why he doesn't fight in tournements thusly- "When I fight a man I don't want him to know what I can do." That's pretty much how I feel.

  5. #64
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    I fully support someone if they want to OC but I wouldn't want to do it. Being visibly armed may cause a would-be scuzzball to go elsewhere or it may encourage him to go in guns blazing and try to take me out first. I'd rather be a bit more discrete. It's like the scene in Game of Thrones where Ned Stark is talking to Jamie Lannister. Stark explains why he doesn't fight in tournements thusly- "When I fight a man I don't want him to know what I can do." That's pretty much how I feel.
    But, I don't want to have to fight anybody if I can keep from it.


    -

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Without trying to sound too cold hearted isn't this a good thing? If the bad guys attention is drawn towards the open carrier ans away from you doesn't that make you safer? Wouldn't it give you time to either get away or if you are carrying concealed to draw your weapon and take a shot at the bad guy without him even knowing you were there. This sounds great to me. You have your own personal decoy to draw fire and attention away from you.

    I have to admire you for your concern for the safety of a total stranger who is doing something that puts his life in danger. I have to ask is his life that important to you or is it just that you feel he shouldn't be doing something that you yourself do not approve of?

    Michael
    A Gun on your hip no more makes you a target than having Blond hair!

    There are lions in this world that are just bat crazy that want to take on the biggest rhino just because....those lions probably don't last very long.....then there are lions that see the horns of the rhino and say yeah well he looks big and tasty, but man there is a good chance hes gonna take that horn and shove it under my tail!!!! Even these lions recognise that the small rhinos have sharp horns, and there is a good chance that these rhinos aren't stupid and travel together. However, sometimes these lions try and attack those little rhinos and the lion ends up with a horn shoved into its rip cage. HOwever, these lions will probaby say you know lets look for a broken antelope or one that doesn't run very fast, and is only a 10th my body weight with no visible horns!
    Spirit51, carracer and atctimmy like this.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  7. #66
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    A Gun on your hip no more makes you a target than having Blond hair!
    I think you're missing the point that's being made. Sure, statistically speaking those who OC may be just as apt to be in a gun fight as those who CC. That's not what I see being argued by tcox.

    What I see being argued, is IF you are in a situation where a BG has ALREADY determined to come in and rob the place with a gun, you, as a person who is OC, have choices that are more limited as I, who CCs would.

    The reasons are simple. If it's a bad tactical situation, I can choose to stay concealed the entire time. If I remain calm and not do a thing, even if they guy's eyes sweep over me while I'm sitting in a chair or walking back from the bathroom, there's nothing he's going to see.

    You, on the other hand, don't have that option. As soon as the BG looks at you, he sees you are (1) armed and thus, (2) a threat. Your options have been removed and at that point, you're in a reactive situation. Either you have to draw and fire, or wait it out and see if he's going to run away instead. There's very little chance of the status quo remaining at that point in time.

    So, do I think it makes you a "general' target? No. I do think that if someone has already targeted a place that will involve you, OC limits your options because seeing the gun is an immediate threat to the BG and thus, you become a target quicker than the other average person in that store, restaurant, etc.

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    I think you're missing the point that's being made. Sure, statistically speaking those who OC may be just as apt to be in a gun fight as those who CC. That's not what I see being argued by tcox.

    What I see being argued, is IF you are in a situation where a BG has ALREADY determined to come in and rob the place with a gun, you, as a person who is OC, have choices that are more limited as I, who CCs would.

    The reasons are simple. If it's a bad tactical situation, I can choose to stay concealed the entire time. If I remain calm and not do a thing, even if they guy's eyes sweep over me while I'm sitting in a chair or walking back from the bathroom, there's nothing he's going to see.

    You, on the other hand, don't have that option. As soon as the BG looks at you, he sees you are (1) armed and thus, (2) a threat. Your options have been removed and at that point, you're in a reactive situation. Either you have to draw and fire, or wait it out and see if he's going to run away instead. There's very little chance of the status quo remaining at that point in time.

    So, do I think it makes you a "general' target? No. I do think that if someone has already targeted a place that will involve you, OC limits your options because seeing the gun is an immediate threat to the BG and thus, you become a target quicker than the other average person in that store, restaurant, etc.
    You mean like this?
    UPDATE: Suspect arrested in convenience store shooting - NBC12.com - Richmond, VA News, Weather, Traffic & Sports

    If I recall the OCer was carrying a single action revolver in a drop leg holster in the middle of the day, the robber did not notice him at all.

    In todays world of the Batman Blackberry, Smart Phone belt. I truely believe nobody has any self awareness below your belt anymore.

    1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
    Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
    ************************************************** **************************

    On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
    in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
    owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
    inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

    He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
    set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

    Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
    (Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
    place one week earlier.

    Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
    I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

    We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
    hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

    Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
    videos:

    The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
    when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
    coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
    everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
    walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
    twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
    more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
    shot the store owner.

    Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

    The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
    BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
    GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

    The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
    innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
    distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
    that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
    for that GO returning fire.

    The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
    various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
    cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

    What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
    owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
    aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
    to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

    Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
    open.

    Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
    floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

    But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
    arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
    twice.

    Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
    tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
    A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
    and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
    on his rather heavy gun.

    The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
    door, but collapsed at the door.

    The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
    bad guy, called 9-1-1.

    The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

    The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
    had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
    could figure out who was who.

    What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
    owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
    all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
    let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
    this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
    shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
    teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
    the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
    customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
    display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
    killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

    A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
    none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

    --

    The GO wanted me to share the following points:

    * Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
    life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
    trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

    * Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

    * More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
    they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
    if their crimes send them to jail.

    * He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

    --

    Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

    * Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
    without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
    important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

    * Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
    just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
    fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
    you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
    in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
    store owner.

    * I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
    THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
    grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
    hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
    place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
    position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
    prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
    of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
    shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
    takes to stop such an attack quickly.

    * If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
    which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

    * This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
    ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
    course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
    guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
    my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
    magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
    idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
    before he does, he will execute you. Period.
    Hobo_Hunter likes this.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  9. #68
    Member Array ballfroguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Once again you think OC allows you to have some sort of old west "quick draw". I can access my firearm under a t-shirt fast enough to get the job done. Only difference is, I blend in and nobody knows I have my gun. To me, OC is like playing poker with your cards facing out.
    But since you have a royal flush, no one will want to play.. :-)
    Ogre, Taurahe and cmdrdredd like this.

  10. #69
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    You mean like this?
    The thing is, he didn't notice. What if he did? That's my entire point. I'd just rather not take that chance because if he does, it takes options away from me. I'm not bemoaning open carry here, just stating my reasoning of why I believe it to be a little more chancy.

  11. #70
    Member Array NorthernVandal's Avatar
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    Without reading through every page and getting in to an argument over it I see open carry as simply comfortable, when I want to carry OC, I do. Thinking that you are a "target" is ludicrous. Bad guys don't look to be murderers, they look for easy targets to rob. Pretty simple. Before anyone thinks OC is just a machismo tactic to get attention, it's not. A right not exercised is a right lost or soon to lose. It's not a statement of anything other than it's a right some think too much about before they just go with their comfort and right as an American.
    Ogre and carracer like this.
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  12. #71
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    So did an M4 in my hand but that did not stop me. Nor did it it work out well for those that saw us as a traget.
    cmdrdredd likes this.

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    The thing is, he didn't notice. What if he did? That's my entire point. I'd just rather not take that chance because if he does, it takes options away from me. I'm not bemoaning open carry here, just stating my reasoning of why I believe it to be a little more chancy.
    I'm willing to bet that if you lined up 10 criminals and told them the following two scenarios they would avoid the man with the gun.

    1) You go in a convenience store with the intention of robbing it. Everyone there looks like normal businessmen after work. Seems safe. What do you do?
    2) You go in a convenience store with the intention of robbing it. One guy there is wearing a gun, openly no less. You notice it plain as day. What do you do?

    To me it would seem that self preservation kicks in. You don't want to be shot at much less actually shot. What if that guy is a cop...you don't know. Yes we know criminals are stupid anyway, but many of them are calculating and try to avoid mistakes. They don't want someone to fight back, they want it to go nice and easy. That's why around here the same store keeps getting hit over and over. They are easy targets and they know it.

    The other side to this is people might actually feel safer knowing someone with a gun IS there. Not just a bunch of average joe schmoes. I would think most people see the gun and say "hey he's probably a cop of some kind" and that would ease their mind just a bit in some circumstances.
    Ogre likes this.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

  14. #73
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    I'm willing to bet that if you lined up 10 criminals and told them the following two scenarios they would avoid the man with the gun.

    1) You go in a convenience store with the intention of robbing it. Everyone there looks like normal businessmen after work. Seems safe. What do you do?
    2) You go in a convenience store with the intention of robbing it. One guy there is wearing a gun, openly no less. You notice it plain as day. What do you do?

    To me it would seem that self preservation kicks in. You don't want to be shot at much less actually shot. What if that guy is a cop...you don't know. Yes we know criminals are stupid anyway, but many of them are calculating and try to avoid mistakes. They don't want someone to fight back, they want it to go nice and easy. That's why around here the same store keeps getting hit over and over. They are easy targets and they know it.

    The other side to this is people might actually feel safer knowing someone with a gun IS there. Not just a bunch of average joe schmoes. I would think most people see the gun and say "hey he's probably a cop of some kind" and that would ease their mind just a bit in some circumstances.
    Take that situation, and add one little difference. You, the BD, have already made your play when you see the gun. Or, you, the bad guy, are intent on robbing the store no matter what for some reason.

    If what you're saying is true, then when I unholster, the guy's going to have the same reaction. The difference is, I've been able to choose when to get involved. That's my entire issue in a nut shell. OC has a greater chance of getting you involved on their terms, rather than yours. Is that greater chance a .5 percent chances? Maybe. But it's still enough for me.

    Now - have there been times when I've thought about open carrying? In the heat of Arizona this coming summer - you better believe there will be, and I just may do it a few times for that very reason. I will however, think specifically about the fact that I'm OC instead of CC if I do it.

  15. #74
    Senior Member Array USM1976's Avatar
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    If one is a OC person, he has a better chance of the hard core robber walking up to him with his handgun hidden a kill him first to make a point...then rob the store. BUT, most robbers do not desire any confrontation which may get them dead or hospitalized and arrested. I like the fact the thug doesn't know I have a handgun...when he turns to rob the clerk, alls fair...he's threatening someone's life and anyone can legally act.

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Re: A gun on your hip makes you a target...

    Its like gun free zones guys. If you know that guns are there the chances of something going down is much lower. It is proven.

    Sent via telepathy on a Galaxy S3
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

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