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This is a discussion on A gun on your hip makes you a target... within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; WHAT ???????...
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So true. One of the main reasons I carry and have for years. No fluffy dinner here for the predators among us.Originally Posted by LongRider
I may or may not win, but I will put up one hell of a fight they won't soon forget. A couple of the elements to the success of self defense is resolve and mind set.
A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
Susan B. Anthony
A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
Robert Heinlein
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I fully support someone if they want to OC but I wouldn't want to do it. Being visibly armed may cause a would-be scuzzball to go elsewhere or it may encourage him to go in guns blazing and try to take me out first. I'd rather be a bit more discrete. It's like the scene in Game of Thrones where Ned Stark is talking to Jamie Lannister. Stark explains why he doesn't fight in tournements thusly- "When I fight a man I don't want him to know what I can do." That's pretty much how I feel.
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But, I don't want to have to fight anybody if I can keep from it.
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A Gun on your hip no more makes you a target than having Blond hair!
There are lions in this world that are just bat crazy that want to take on the biggest rhino just because....those lions probably don't last very long.....then there are lions that see the horns of the rhino and say yeah well he looks big and tasty, but man there is a good chance hes gonna take that horn and shove it under my tail!!!! Even these lions recognise that the small rhinos have sharp horns, and there is a good chance that these rhinos aren't stupid and travel together. However, sometimes these lions try and attack those little rhinos and the lion ends up with a horn shoved into its rip cage. HOwever, these lions will probaby say you know lets look for a broken antelope or one that doesn't run very fast, and is only a 10th my body weight with no visible horns!
You do not fight like you train nor will you rise to the occasion, but rather default to the highest level you have mastered....Officer B. Harnish.
I am not responsible for any mispelngs or gramcraker mistakes caused by auto correct!
Its not about guns..........Its about Freedom!
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I think you're missing the point that's being made. Sure, statistically speaking those who OC may be just as apt to be in a gun fight as those who CC. That's not what I see being argued by tcox.
What I see being argued, is IF you are in a situation where a BG has ALREADY determined to come in and rob the place with a gun, you, as a person who is OC, have choices that are more limited as I, who CCs would.
The reasons are simple. If it's a bad tactical situation, I can choose to stay concealed the entire time. If I remain calm and not do a thing, even if they guy's eyes sweep over me while I'm sitting in a chair or walking back from the bathroom, there's nothing he's going to see.
You, on the other hand, don't have that option. As soon as the BG looks at you, he sees you are (1) armed and thus, (2) a threat. Your options have been removed and at that point, you're in a reactive situation. Either you have to draw and fire, or wait it out and see if he's going to run away instead. There's very little chance of the status quo remaining at that point in time.
So, do I think it makes you a "general' target? No. I do think that if someone has already targeted a place that will involve you, OC limits your options because seeing the gun is an immediate threat to the BG and thus, you become a target quicker than the other average person in that store, restaurant, etc.
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You mean like this?
UPDATE: Suspect arrested in convenience store shooting - NBC12.com - Richmond, VA News, Weather, Traffic & Sports
If I recall the OCer was carrying a single action revolver in a drop leg holster in the middle of the day, the robber did not notice him at all.
In todays world of the Batman Blackberry, Smart Phone belt. I truely believe nobody has any self awareness below your belt anymore.
1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
************************************************** **************************
On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.
He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.
Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
(Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
place one week earlier.
Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
I got to see the security videos of the shooting!
We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.
Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
videos:
The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
shot the store owner.
Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.
The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.
The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
for that GO returning fire.
The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.
What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.
Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
open.
Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!
But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
twice.
Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
on his rather heavy gun.
The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
door, but collapsed at the door.
The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
bad guy, called 9-1-1.
The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).
The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
could figure out who was who.
What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(
A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.
--
The GO wanted me to share the following points:
* Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.
* Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.
* More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
if their crimes send them to jail.
* He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.
--
Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:
* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.
* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
store owner.
* I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
takes to stop such an attack quickly.
* If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.
* This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
before he does, he will execute you. Period.
You do not fight like you train nor will you rise to the occasion, but rather default to the highest level you have mastered....Officer B. Harnish.
I am not responsible for any mispelngs or gramcraker mistakes caused by auto correct!
Its not about guns..........Its about Freedom!
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The thing is, he didn't notice. What if he did? That's my entire point. I'd just rather not take that chance because if he does, it takes options away from me. I'm not bemoaning open carry here, just stating my reasoning of why I believe it to be a little more chancy.
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Without reading through every page and getting in to an argument over it I see open carry as simply comfortable, when I want to carry OC, I do. Thinking that you are a "target" is ludicrous. Bad guys don't look to be murderers, they look for easy targets to rob. Pretty simple. Before anyone thinks OC is just a machismo tactic to get attention, it's not. A right not exercised is a right lost or soon to lose. It's not a statement of anything other than it's a right some think too much about before they just go with their comfort and right as an American.
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I'm willing to bet that if you lined up 10 criminals and told them the following two scenarios they would avoid the man with the gun.
1) You go in a convenience store with the intention of robbing it. Everyone there looks like normal businessmen after work. Seems safe. What do you do?
2) You go in a convenience store with the intention of robbing it. One guy there is wearing a gun, openly no less. You notice it plain as day. What do you do?
To me it would seem that self preservation kicks in. You don't want to be shot at much less actually shot. What if that guy is a cop...you don't know. Yes we know criminals are stupid anyway, but many of them are calculating and try to avoid mistakes. They don't want someone to fight back, they want it to go nice and easy. That's why around here the same store keeps getting hit over and over. They are easy targets and they know it.
The other side to this is people might actually feel safer knowing someone with a gun IS there. Not just a bunch of average joe schmoes. I would think most people see the gun and say "hey he's probably a cop of some kind" and that would ease their mind just a bit in some circumstances.
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Take that situation, and add one little difference. You, the BD, have already made your play when you see the gun. Or, you, the bad guy, are intent on robbing the store no matter what for some reason.
If what you're saying is true, then when I unholster, the guy's going to have the same reaction. The difference is, I've been able to choose when to get involved. That's my entire issue in a nut shell. OC has a greater chance of getting you involved on their terms, rather than yours. Is that greater chance a .5 percent chances? Maybe. But it's still enough for me.
Now - have there been times when I've thought about open carrying? In the heat of Arizona this coming summer - you better believe there will be, and I just may do it a few times for that very reason. I will however, think specifically about the fact that I'm OC instead of CC if I do it.
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If one is a OC person, he has a better chance of the hard core robber walking up to him with his handgun hidden a kill him first to make a point...then rob the store. BUT, most robbers do not desire any confrontation which may get them dead or hospitalized and arrested. I like the fact the thug doesn't know I have a handgun...when he turns to rob the clerk, alls fair...he's threatening someone's life and anyone can legally act.
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Its like gun free zones guys. If you know that guns are there the chances of something going down is much lower. It is proven.
Sent via telepathy on a Galaxy S3
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
-Thomas Jefferson
Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.
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