UPDATE: Kid in Birmingham Mi Open carrying a rifle is going to be tried

This is a discussion on UPDATE: Kid in Birmingham Mi Open carrying a rifle is going to be tried within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This country would have never been founded if some of you bed wetters were around 200 years ago. I just love it when the kids ...

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Thread: UPDATE: Kid in Birmingham Mi Open carrying a rifle is going to be tried

  1. #31
    VIP Member
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    This country would have never been founded if some of you bed wetters were around 200 years ago.

    I just love it when the kids get to play on the computer they are so entertaining. I love it when they tell stories of what they learned in history class. Please oh please regale me with more of your wisdom.

    I don't really know how much wisdom that will be, been a member for four years and has 18 posts. I guess he was just waiting for the right time.
    Harryball likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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  3. #32
    Ex Member Array Yankeejib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by todhog View Post
    What? If you want to see what poking a bear is read up on the men who signed the Declaration of Independence. Without bear pokers like them you'd be speaking the Queen's English.
    Regardless of his coarse, boorish presentation, there's a ton of truth here. Too bad he has the social tact of a soup ladle.
    carracer likes this.

  4. #33
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    In my line of employment the AK is instantly seen as the "Bad Guy" weapon,regardless,and I know thats profiling,but it has worked for me a long time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector71 View Post
    Regardless of how this turns out, it's gonna cost the kid's mother some huge bucks. Hope the new member from Charlotte wanting to carry an AK-47 to the grocery store reads this thread and does some serious thinking.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Brandishing, Breach of Peace, Resisting?

    It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

    The "brandishing" ordinance in Birmingham, MI. No definition of the word, so I'd think it comes down to the standard, everyday definition.
    Quote Originally Posted by City ordinance 74-211 Birmingham, MI
    Sec. 74-211. - Brandishing.

    (a) No person shall, except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, knowingly brandish a firearm in public.

    (b) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to any of the following:
    (1) A peace officer lawfully performing his duties as a peace officer.
    (2) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.
    (3) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.
    (4) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.

    (c) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00 or both.
    Hm. No mention of lawfully walking down the street. Perhaps that's why the police got bent.


    Quote Originally Posted by City ordinance 74-156 Birmingham, MI
    Sec. 74-156. - Breach of peace.

    Any person who shall make or assist in making any noise, disturbance, trouble or improper diversion, or any rout or riot, by which the peace and good order of the city are disturbed, shall be guilty of a breach of the peace, and disorderly conduct.
    Pretty vague. One could be charged with "making trouble" merely because of the concept of carrying a rifle not being palatable to some, despite the only outwardly-apparent disturbance being that of others disliking the concept (and phoning in a MWAG call to police).


    As for the "resisting officer" charge ...
    Quote Originally Posted by City ordinance 74-27 Birmingham, MI
    Sec. 74-27. - Resisting officer.

    It shall be unlawful for any person to resist any police officer or other law enforcement agent while in the discharge or apparent discharge of his duty, or in any way interfere with or hinder him in the discharge of his duty.
    Unknown exactly what was said or done by each party (guy, police), but it seems this ordinance could allow for questions posed regarding one's walking down the street being taken as interfering or hindering discharge of an officer's duty.


    ========

    Unknown what exactly went down, on that street, including what was said and done by each party specifically. What the guy's facing is: upstanding officers, versus an 18yr old "kid" with a "military rifle strapped to his back" carrying through the middle of town.

    I can remember not too many years back when the act of carrying a rifle, itself, wasn't considered criminal, misdemeanor or otherwise.

    If the guy was only carrying it, he'll have to hope the judge in the case has the self-respect and integrity to ensure the common definition of the word is used:
    Quote Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    Brandish
    1. To shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly.
    2. To exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxford English Dictionary
    Brandish

    wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
    Clearly (at least to me, though perhaps not to an 'authority' opting to go after a person), the intent of the word is for describing overt acts above and beyond merely walking along (if that's indeed what occurred; unknown).

    We'll see.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    PEF you are right we dont know all the facts all we know is he does not look 18, was carrying a rifle, police asked him for ID to prove his age and he refused so he was arrested.

    If there is some super secret squirrel activity that no one knows about please let me know.
    No squirrels. My point is that we are taking media reports, which very recent events have shown that they have the potential to be very inaccurate, and we are running with them as if they are fact. We now have people opining as to the young man's motivation, and as to how the would find guilty or not guilty of various charges. Until we know all the facts - and none of us will unless we are on the jury or unless we follow the trial closely - I just can't make a call here. It appears that some posters who disagree with the apparent motivations of the young man are ready to convict him of particular crimes...

    Just sayin'.

  7. #36
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    Judge allows brandishing case to proceed | Livingston Daily | livingstondaily.com

    In line with CCW9MM's post, here's an interesting quip from the article:


    A lawyer for Birmingham believes a jury would find Combs guilty of brandishing. In a 16-page brief filed with the court, attorney Mary Kucharek, with the law firm of Beier Howlett, argued Combs met the definition of "brandishing" when he decided to strap the rifle to his back and take a walk in the city.

    "A young man, walking the streets of Birmingham where large numbers of young people congregate well after dark with no legitimate stated reason for transporting a loaded weapon means the defendant could only have been walking with the gun in that position so that people would see it," Kucharek stated. "It could only have been his intent that other pedestrians and motorists should see the gun, which is tantamount to brandishing the weapon within the common usage of that term."


    Seems like carrying any long gun would be "brandishing." Odd, I didn't read any daylight restriction in the statute, either. But who knows....

    (Aside: Ain't if funny how nobody blinks an eye when we walk around with a handgun with one in the pipe, but when we have a rifle with one in the pipe everyone goes nuts?).

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From the news
    "... could only have been walking with the gun in that position so that people would see it," Kucharek stated. "It could only have been his intent that other pedestrians and motorists should see the gun, which is tantamount to brandishing the weapon within the common usage of that term."
    BS. The attorney's claiming to know his intent. He's also claiming merely wearing an item is done so that others will see it. So, if I wear a shirt then I'm INTENDING it to be noticed by others ... and I'm guilty of brandishing a shirt. So is every other person in my town on that day. Hm, so is the attorney, who's also brandishing his flapping gums attempting to get people to believe it. Gee, somebody had better arrest the sucker [the attorney], before he causes anyone damage, threatening as his actions obviously might be ... within the 'common' usage of the term.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  9. #38
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    Ummmmmm....well the attorney is probably right on this point.

    The kid had a rifle slung over his shoulder kinda hard not to see it and obviously it was seen and noticed by police. Unless there is something I am not aware of a shirt, unless it is really ugly, does not have the capabiltiy of causing an alarm or putting people in fear, again all depends on the shirt.

    Again the kid looked 12. In Michigan you have to be 18 to carry all he had to do was show that he was of age. He was not thrown down, beaten or threatened they simply asked him for ID to show proof of his age.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #39
    Member Array Penhall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    He was not thrown down, beaten or threatened they simply asked him for ID to show proof of his age.
    ...which he doesn't have a legal obligation to produce or carry. IMO, the cops were within the scope of their authority to detain/arrest him until they could ascertain that he was of legal age to carry the weapon. At that point, he should have been released and any charges dropped.

    I don't agree with all of the kids actions. For instance, I don't have an issue with providing ID to a LEO, regardless of whether I'm required to, but that doesn't change the fact that based on Michigan's laws, the kid appears to be innocent of any wrong doing.

  11. #40
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    Wow seems like a bunch of pokers on here!

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by From the article
    "... could only have been walking with the gun in that position so that people would see it," Kucharek stated. "It could only have been his intent that other pedestrians and motorists should see the gun, which is tantamount to brandishing the weapon within the common usage of that term."
    Ummmmmm....well the attorney is probably right on this point.

    ... all he had to do was show that he was of age.
    He was charged with brandishing, not with failure to produce identification. The claim being made is that walking with it in plain view is tantamount to brandishing, and that this is the common usage/definition of the term 'brandishing.' Of course, there are zero details being currently published in the news regarding whether the gun was merely visible by third parties or whether he actually did (as claimed) wave/display the gun in a threatening manner (which is really the common usage). NOTE: the mere fact third-parties aren't comfortable with a completely legal activity isn't itself sufficient to make it a crime, whether that third party is a worrywort making a MWAG call to police, or the 'authorities' themselves.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Poke the bear at your own peril. The kid wanted to be in the news. Well he succeeded.
    Was poking the bear against the law? If not isn't the bear the one violating the law?

    Michael
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    PEF you are right we dont know all the facts all we know is he does not look 18, was carrying a rifle, police asked him for ID to prove his age and he refused so he was arrested.

    If there is some super secret squirrel activity that no one knows about please let me know.
    Does anyone know if he was required to carry and ID in the State this happened in?

    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    He was charged with brandishing, not with failure to produce identification. The claim being made is that walking with it in plain view is tantamount to brandishing, and that this is the common usage/definition of the term 'brandishing.' Of course, there are zero details being currently published in the news regarding whether the gun was merely visible by third parties or whether he actually did (as claimed) wave/display the gun in a threatening manner (which is really the common usage). NOTE: the mere fact third-parties aren't comfortable with a completely legal activity isn't itself sufficient to make it a crime, whether that third party is a worrywort making a MWAG call to police, or the 'authorities' themselves.
    Great point. If the only charge is brandishing, and not obstruction, then it seems like an overly broad interpretation of the term. Query - if walking with a gun in plain view is tantamount to brandishing, then how can one carry a long gun without breaking the law?

    It will be interesting to see what happens at trial (if there is one).

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Here's one article written (back in 2011) about over-broad interpretations of vague "brandishing" statutes in MI: Using brandishing statutes to chill Second Amendment rights.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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