Is checking for a Lisense a valid reason to detain a person?

Is checking for a Lisense a valid reason to detain a person?

This is a discussion on Is checking for a Lisense a valid reason to detain a person? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The thread about the guy who was arrested for open carrying when the Police said he did not appear to be of legal age to ...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 53
Like Tree19Likes

Thread: Is checking for a Lisense a valid reason to detain a person?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298

    Is checking for a Lisense a valid reason to detain a person?

    The thread about the guy who was arrested for open carrying when the Police said he did not appear to be of legal age to carry. In that case the Police claim is that he was stopped because of his youthful appearance. Which I understand would be reasonable cause.

    Now for my issue. November first of this year Open carry, with a license, will become legal in Oklahoma. The Police Chief in one city here has already announced that his department will stop anyone they see openly carrying and ask to see their license. One some forums I have read that this is illegal if they do not have a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed.
    Does anyone know for sure?

    EDIT: I seem to have found my answer.
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_are_ch...a_traffic_stop
    It depends on the type of motorist checkpoint. Roadblocks, as they are referred to by the courts, fall under what is known as a special needs exception to the 4th Amendment. The special needs exception requires that the primary purpose of the search/seizure be for regulatory, not law enforcement, purposes. Under this theory, things like drivers license/vehicle registration checkpoints pass muster because the purpose is to ensure motorists have complied with state licensing requirements. And as stated below, if there are observable signs of other wrongdoing, police may also gain probable cause for further searches at this type of checkpoint.
    Under this special needs excemption it seems the Government is free to stop anyone who is required by law to have a license, for any activity, to see if they have one. This example refers to drivers licenses but I assume it applies to all activities requiring a license.

    Michael


  2. #2
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,899
    Using the standard used for drivers licenses, no, that would not be legal.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #3
    sgb
    sgb is offline
    VIP Member Array sgb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    You don't need to know
    Posts
    2,414
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Using the standard used for drivers licenses, no, that would not be legal.
    I agree, nothing prevents an Officer from approaching and inquiring under a voluntary contact, however the Officer can not detain and demand without reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    3,085
    No, it is not. A couple of websites have some good resources on the legal aspects of this question that cite specific court cases on this issue. I'll let you do the searching leg work since I don't remember the specific posts. Hope this helps.

    OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum

    Open Carry
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

  5. #5
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,511
    Agree with SIXTO as to it not being legal without some other justification. A MWAG call will probably be used as justification. If the police chief tells his men to stop anyone they see OC'ing, then it is going to happen.

    If that is the orders they are given, people need to remember, not to blame the LEO on the street who is following orders from his boss. But to blame the chief. I would imagine a couple of law suits with him getting his hand slapped will change his orders.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

    USAF Retired
    NRA Life Member

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    I have found answering it both ways. It seems some States have laws preventing drivers license checks unless their is some other reason for the stop. I edited my original post to show a Federal Court exception for license checks if it is fro regulatory reasons and not law enforcement. Just thinking about it. How if stopping me to check for a carry license or drivers license is illegal why can I be stopped to check for a hunting or fishing license?

    Michael

  7. #7
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,899
    Fish and game have a lot more leeway; you are hunting state owned animals on state owned land...
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #8
    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    199
    It was written in the Oklahoma open carry law that any LEO can ask to see your permit if you are carrying OC. They don't need a reason to stop you and ask. All they need to see is your gun. Once they see you have a permit and are legally carrying then you "should" be free to go.
    Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.

    John Wayne

  9. #9
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Rocky Mountain High in Colorado
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Agree with SIXTO as to it not being legal without some other justification. A MWAG call will probably be used as justification. If the police chief tells his men to stop anyone they see OC'ing, then it is going to happen.

    If that is the orders they are given, people need to remember, not to blame the LEO on the street who is following orders from his boss. But to blame the chief. I would imagine a couple of law suits with him getting his hand slapped will change his orders.
    I seem to remember the United States being the primary power behind sending men to the gallows who claimed "I vas only following orders"; saying a man is obligated to disobey unlawful orders.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I seem to remember the United States being the primary power behind sending men to the gallows who claimed "I vas only following orders"; saying a man is obligated to disobey unlawful orders.
    Like a Police officer on the side of a road. The winning side gets to decide what is a lawful order.

    Michael

  11. #11
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,662
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Fish and game have a lot more leeway; you are hunting state owned animals on state owned land...
    I don't know about that particular rationalization. You could well be correct, but it has been my understanding
    that the Fish and Game folks regularly check on private property as well, because they are looking to catch
    poachers and trespassers; and an occasional meth lab they might stumble on.
    The Old Anglo likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  12. #12
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,662
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick7340 View Post
    It was written in the Oklahoma open carry law that any LEO can ask to see your permit if you are carrying OC. They don't need a reason to stop you and ask. All they need to see is your gun. Once they see you have a permit and are legally carrying then you "should" be free to go.
    Wow, that could get to be quite a nuisance if you are taking a long walk through a heavily patrolled
    location.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #13
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Rocky Mountain High in Colorado
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Like a Police officer on the side of a road. The winning side gets to decide what is a lawful order.

    Michael
    NO! You don't fight it on the side of the road....... You dry hump him in court till his nose bleeds!

  14. #14
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,899
    Im not so sure about the dry humping part, but yes, court is the proper venue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't know about that particular rationalization. You could well be correct, but it has been my understanding
    that the Fish and Game folks regularly check on private property as well, because they are looking to catch
    poachers and trespassers; and an occasional meth lab they might stumble on.
    Im sure things will vary slightly from state to state, but in the game warden is on private property, he'd be so at the invitation of the owner, or if the property is split by public access such as a road. Otherwise reasonable suspicion would need to exist. Most property owners welcome wildlife officers on their land, as it does nothing but good for them. They chase off the riff raff and often help out with land and wildlife management issues. Here in Ohio, a guy can hunt and fish to his hearts content on his own property without a license. He still needs to obey game seasons, as the actual animals belong to the people. The only exception would be a game farm, and then the animals belong to the farm.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  15. #15
    Member Array woodstock's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Agree with SIXTO as to it not being legal without some other justification. A MWAG call will probably be used as justification. If the police chief tells his men to stop anyone they see OC'ing, then it is going to happen.

    If that is the orders they are given, people need to remember, not to blame the LEO on the street who is following orders from his boss. But to blame the chief. I would imagine a couple of law suits with him getting his hand slapped will change his orders.
    We all know, "I was only following orders." didn't work at Nurenburg. We also know about lawful orders and that we disobey at our own peril. But LEOs have to obey the law before than obeying a boss bent on harassing law abiding citizens. The individual officer is going to named in the civil suit so CYA.
    The Old Anglo likes this.
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.

    George Washington

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

2013 open carry in mi youtube
,
can an officer detain you for open carry
,
do indiana have the right to detain you if you open carry a gun
,
is it legal for a cop to stop me just because i am open carrying
,
ohio delaware prouse open carry law
,

open carry and detained on youtube

,
open carry fishing florida harassed
,

probable cause youthful appearance

,
reasons to be detained in texas
,

under oklahoma's open carry law can police stop me and ask for permit without cause

,
unlawful stop and detained oklahoma
,
unlawful ti detain a person for just carrying a gun
Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors