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police stop man for open carrying (vid)

This is a discussion on police stop man for open carrying (vid) within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Why do the police fear the legally carried gun they CAN see? What about the all the ones they can't see carried by the 5 ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array gigamortis's Avatar
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    Why do the police fear the legally carried gun they CAN see? What about the all the ones they can't see carried by the 5 street pharmaceutical dealers around the corner?
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  2. #17
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    sorry can't comment.been told to stay off OC issues If I don't OC.

  3. #18
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    Keep in mind that I come from the leo perspective, but, how would anyone feel if a bunch of respectable young men wearing gang colors were walking down the street carrying openly? These officers did not appear to me to be going overboard as some others have done, no arrest or hand cuffs, etc...this man was doing what he had a right to do, but the art of compromise will keep open carry legal...scare the sheep to much, and you might find a bill in the legislature to make open carry illegal...everyone must make their own decision how to handle this situation...I have friends who open carry, but they have no problem with the respectful requests of identification and even the officer holding the gun...I have other leo friends who won't bother an open carrier, I have others who will approach as these officers did...complicated issue...



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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWillis57 View Post
    Pleading the 5th amendment only works if you would be self incriminating. For any sort of a non-citizen initiated contact, police are going to, and should ask for identification. They also would have been justified in conducting a Terry Frisk (Reasonable Police Officer believes the person may be in the possession of a dangerous weapon), unless that doesn't apply in that particular state. It's easy to articulate that person with a gun openly displayed may be concealing other weapons. Thus to conduct said frisk, they would have every right to temporarily detain the individual, and verify his identity. Terry V. Ohio specifically relates to balancing a temporary detainment versus the public safety. Again, unless there is state statute that would supercede accepted case law, the police had every right to stop, detain and identify the individual.

    Oh by the way, case law has found that the 5th amendment doesn't apply to refusing to identify yourself. (Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada). If the police have reasonable suspicion, which could be articulated by the openly displayed firearm, they can detain and identify you.
    Terry held that a stop and frisk was lawful it the police had a RAS that the subject committed, was committing, or was about to commit a crime. But carrying in a lawful manner is not criminal.

    Let's say the dude carried concealed and he printed. Someone called in a MWAG. The police officer can conduct a pat-down because the guy printed when he bent over to pick up a gardening magazine??? I don't think so.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by k12cop View Post
    Keep in mind that I come from the leo perspective, but, how would anyone feel if a bunch of respectable young men wearing gang colors were walking down the street carrying openly? These officers did not appear to me to be going overboard as some others have done, no arrest or hand cuffs, etc...this man was doing what he had a right to do, but the art of compromise will keep open carry legal...scare the sheep to much, and you might find a bill in the legislature to make open carry illegal...everyone must make their own decision how to handle this situation...I have friends who open carry, but they have no problem with the respectful requests of identification and even the officer holding the gun...I have other leo friends who won't bother an open carrier, I have others who will approach as these officers did...complicated issue...
    ....
    I think police are in a tough spot with MWAG calls - assuming the subject is a legal carrier*. Someone's not going to be happy, but on the other hand, it's not a call that's going to be ignored. As long as both sides are respectful, it should be over quick and without infringement of any parties rights.

    Seems like the police in the vid handled it okay. The subject was probably nervous, too, hence his choppy tone.

    Face it, we don't live in a perfect world.


    * Yes, they are in a much more difficult spot when the subject is not a legal carrier. Problem is they don't know when they are on the way, eh?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by k12cop View Post
    Keep in mind that I come from the leo perspective, but, how would anyone feel if a bunch of respectable young men wearing gang colors were walking down the street carrying openly? These officers did not appear to me to be going overboard as some others have done, no arrest or hand cuffs, etc...this man was doing what he had a right to do, but the art of compromise will keep open carry legal...scare the sheep to much, and you might find a bill in the legislature to make open carry illegal...everyone must make their own decision how to handle this situation...I have friends who open carry, but they have no problem with the respectful requests of identification and even the officer holding the gun...I have other leo friends who won't bother an open carrier, I have others who will approach as these officers did...complicated issue...



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    I respectively ask why is it OK for a officer to hold my gun?

    In the metro Detroit area I nor any of my legally armed friends have EVER shot anybody but numerous officers have "accidentally" shot people, so with that in mind do you honestly think "compromise" is given for no reason? Most of the people I know do not trust any cops, because of the weekly stories of them screwing up in this area. When any of them are doing nothing illegal and approached by officers demanding they disarm and hand over ID, think of how that makes a person feel. Again I am not saying you do this, just trying to give you a perspective on why many do not think that is even an acceptable option.

    MI is not a stop and ID state, yet it happens to OCers all the time. Why is that acceptable but not wanting to give ID when the law says you do not have to is unacceptable?

    If you were walking down the street and I asked you for your drivers license, would you hand it over?
    I am asking about while you are in uniform and I am just Joe public?

    This is a loaded question because last year there were multiple cops in MI charged and convicted with felonies, so giving ID to a possible criminal is very much and option no matter what they are wearing these days. Again just a thought that you can toss around in the lunch room to co workers that hassle OCers.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Every time I see one of these videos my first reaction is that it its going to be another two years before we get open carry in Texas.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by k12cop View Post
    Keep in mind that I come from the leo perspective, but, how would anyone feel if a bunch of respectable young men wearing gang colors were walking down the street carrying openly? These officers did not appear to me to be going overboard as some others have done, no arrest or hand cuffs, etc...this man was doing what he had a right to do, but the art of compromise will keep open carry legal...scare the sheep to much, and you might find a bill in the legislature to make open carry illegal...everyone must make their own decision how to handle this situation...I have friends who open carry, but they have no problem with the respectful requests of identification and even the officer holding the gun...I have other leo friends who won't bother an open carrier, I have others who will approach as these officers did...complicated issue...



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    Ok with out being argumentative or disrespectful can to answer me this? If I am not breaking the law what right does any LEO have to interrupt my day in any way.
    If I am not suspected of a crime you have no reason to stop me. LEO everyday see gang members breaking the law they do nothing about it out of fear from the ACLU and the city leaders.
    We see it everyday in Big cities.
    The law says you can't do it with out probable cause that I have either committed a crime or am about to. The law states that the fact I am opening carrying is not probable cause.
    So In this case who is breaking the law or are LEO above the law?
    It is not legal to demand ID from someone without probable cause, Cities here have paid out many law suits of that one.
    I once had an unyielding respect for LEO however events that I have witness and been involved in over the last 10 years and clearly those here in the last 1 1/2 years have convinced me that Most LEO are more about their Political agenda than the law.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWillis57 View Post
    Pleading the 5th amendment only works if you would be self incriminating. For any sort of a non-citizen initiated contact, police are going to, and should ask for identification. They also would have been justified in conducting a Terry Frisk (Reasonable Police Officer believes the person may be in the possession of a dangerous weapon), unless that doesn't apply in that particular state. It's easy to articulate that person with a gun openly displayed may be concealing other weapons. Thus to conduct said frisk, they would have every right to temporarily detain the individual, and verify his identity. Terry V. Ohio specifically relates to balancing a temporary detainment versus the public safety. Again, unless there is state statute that would supercede accepted case law, the police had every right to stop, detain and identify the individual.

    Oh by the way, case law has found that the 5th amendment doesn't apply to refusing to identify yourself. (Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada). If the police have reasonable suspicion, which could be articulated by the openly displayed firearm, they can detain and identify you.
    A few things to touch on friend. The 5th amendment works for everything when dealing with a police officer on the street. I have no idea what may or may not be used against me. Later, in court, I may be compelled to speak by a judge if it is determined such testimony would not be incriminating. I am never required to speak to an officer. The exception would be to identify myself when there is a specific state law that says I am required to.

    Second, just like your Terry V OH cite, it is also established in US v DeBerry that openly carrying a firearm is NOT in and of itself reasonable articulated suspicion. Therefore it is not reasonable to Terry stop or to detain and frisk.

    Why is it police know the rulings that work in their favor but are ignorant of those that restrict them?
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    A few things to touch on friend. The 5th amendment works for everything when dealing with a police officer on the street. I have no idea what may or may not be used against me. Later, in court, I may be compelled to speak by a judge if it is determined such testimony would not be incriminating. I am never required to speak to an officer. The exception would be to identify myself when there is a specific state law that says I am required to.

    Second, just like your Terry V OH cite, it is also established in US v DeBerry that openly carrying a firearm is NOT in and of itself reasonable articulated suspicion. Therefore it is not reasonable to Terry stop or to detain and frisk.

    Why is it police know the rulings that work in their favor but are ignorant of those that restrict them?
    They are not. They just act like they are.

    Cops can lie to you legally to trick you to confess to a crime.

    Cops can lie to act like they do not know that they have no legal grounds to stop you.

    This man had committed no crime, and lucky for us, cops can not arrest people "for the greater good".

    Good job to this man.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by k12cop View Post
    how would anyone feel if a bunch of respectable young men wearing gang colors were walking down the street carrying openly?
    Bull. There's a reason there are rules about the how's and why's of officers interacting with the public and that attitude is why. It's not a complicated issue; it's extremely simple - LEO shouldn't be harassing citizens for exercising their rights.
    First, have you ever seen a gang member open carrying? - I doubt they ever do, so, why would you associate open carrying with gang members?
    2nd, if they are gang members, isn't there a high chance they are on parole or have previous convictions/LEO involvement and thus reason to approach.
    3rd, the cop illegally seized his property, illegally detained him, and endangered him by pointing a loaded gun at him. Seems like the cop is more a danger to citizens than this guy when it comes to open carrying a firearm.
    4th, the cop is clearly badgering a citizen for exercising his rights. He wouldn't answer the question as to what crime was being committed b/c there was none and at that point he should have ended the encounter - his supervisor sure knew when to back off.

    Bottom line is that in all these encounters the cop is ignorant of the law and is merely trying to bully a law abiding citizen via implied threat of arrest. There is a difference in how law abiding oc'ers and gang bangers interact with the police and it's immediately apparent. If LEO's want the respect and cooperation of the public they need to brighten up and figure out that the only way to co-exist with gun owners is to back off and educate the extremely small number of sheeple that are so irrational as to make a call. Every time these events show up on the net they lose more and more of the respect of every gun owner in the US - and there's more and more of us every day.
    crue2009 likes this.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I wish these guys would stop posting these videos. I really don't care if they want to go out and have their fun. More power to them. But these videos aren't doing any favors for those of us that can't legally OC yet and are trying to get legislation passed. Look what these activists have achieved in California. Someone recently posted about a group in Washington trying to get it banned. All the antis have to do when the bill comes up in Austin is to go to our representatives, click on you tube, and tell them,
    "Coming to your neighborhood."
    They can then vote for the bill and sit back and watch the guys who are going to take it upon themselves to educate the world, or they can vote against it. Besides, voting against its not taking away concealed carry so nobody is losing anything, except those of us that would like to someday be able to OC.
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  13. #28
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    Some of y'all don't know the meaning of harassment.

    Asking for an ID is not harassment.

    Talking to someone is not harassment.Interviewing someone is not harassement. Expecting a reasonable response is not harassment. Taking a gun from someone that refuses to answer a simple question is not illegal seizure of property.

    What could have been a simple 5 minute encounter was complicated by a complete and total lack of common sense.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Some of y'all don't know the meaning of harassment.

    Asking for an ID is not harassment.

    Talking to someone is not harassment.Interviewing someone is not harassement. Expecting a reasonable response is not harassment. Taking a gun from someone that refuses to answer a simple question is not illegal seizure of property.

    What could have been a simple 5 minute encounter was complicated by a complete and total lack of common sense.
    I think the feeling many of us have on this matter was that there shouldn't be an encounter. How it proceeds from there is all fallout from the original decision by the officer to have the unsolicited and unwanted encounter in the first place.

    Had the officer taken the time to observe the OCer for a minute or two in order to determine if, in fact, a crime was being committed then he would have seen a guy just walking down the street with a holstered pistol. Instead the officer saw "GUN" and moved right into a Terry stop. I would say that the lack of common sense lies with the instigator of the situation.

    I know you are a "good'un" so I'll ask you. If you saw a guy walking down the street OCing and acting normally would you stop him and bust his chops? I know I wouldn't.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  15. #30
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    I look at these unwarranted stops of open carriers much the same as I do the recent rash of motorcycle only safety inspections. A way to single out a small group of people, who are doing something officials don't like, to harass them.

    Michael

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