police stop man for open carrying (vid)

This is a discussion on police stop man for open carrying (vid) within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Badey I don't like to make assumptions about what people are saying. I am wanting to know how you personally sacrificing 5 ...

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  1. #76
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    I don't like to make assumptions about what people are saying.

    I am wanting to know how you personally sacrificing 5 minutes of your time to talk to an officer (which you didn't want to do in the first place), or any legal carrier doing the same, is going to save someone's life...

    Would you teach him the heimlich maneuver or CPR in those five minutes? Would you educate him about the importance of using sun screen to prevent skin cancer?

    It seems to me that you are assuming that detaining people doing legal things saves lives, and I am wondering how you are making that connection...
    It only takes FIVE MINUTES for an LEO to ask a few questions and avert what could be a bad day for someone. You may think it's a waste of your time....but if he stops a thug or gang member for five minutes....that time is justified.

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  3. #77
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    So having ID means you're not a criminal? Hardly. I would think if someone were so intent on hurting someone, that they could simply have the conversation with the officer and then continue on to do their dirty deed while the officer drives off. Someone showing ID means nothing.
    It means something with the person has a record....been involved with drugs....child abuse....spouse abuse....rape.....etc. Yes...I think they have to right to do a background check if necessary.....no big deal to me.

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    It only takes FIVE MINUTES for an LEO to ask a few questions and avert what could be a bad day for someone. You may think it's a waste of your time....but if he stops a thug or gang member for five minutes....that time is justified.
    When was the last time you saw a thug OCing.....
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  5. #79
    Senior Member Array Super Trucker's Avatar
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    Just another thought, in MI at least you are not required to even have ID on you unless you are driving. The MI State Police put out "Legal Updates" to inform/remind officers of what they should and should not do.

    Please see update #86 Dated October 26 2010
    MSP - Legal Resources



    This paste is a small section of the #86 update regarding to ID.

    Officers are reminded that the Fourth Amendment protects citizens from unreasonable searches and seizures. Carrying a non-concealed firearm is generally legal. Officers may engage in a consensual encounter with a person carrying a non-concealed pistol; however, in order to stop a citizen, officers are required to have reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot. For example, officers may not stop a person on the mere possibility the person may be carrying an unregistered pistol. Officers must possess facts rising to the level of reasonable suspicion to believe the person is carrying an unregistered pistol.
    Officers are also reminded there is no general duty for a citizen to identify himself or herself to a police officer unless the citizen is being stopped for a Michigan Vehicle Code violation.
    I would think most states have similatr updates.

    Updates 54, 55, 66 and 86 all touch on firearms, mostly OC related.

  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    It only takes FIVE MINUTES for an LEO to ask a few questions and avert what could be a bad day for someone. You may think it's a waste of your time....but if he stops a thug or gang member for five minutes....that time is justified.
    The big question is what makes you the authority on what my time is worth?
    5 minutes wasted on a fishing excursion that nothing good can come from is as I said before unacceptable.
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  7. #81
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    It only takes FIVE MINUTES for an LEO to ask a few questions and avert what could be a bad day for someone. You may think it's a waste of your time....but if he stops a thug or gang member for five minutes....that time is justified.
    The problem is bigger than this. They often don't just ask questions. They illegally detain you, illegally seize your property, sometimes illegally search you, and then try to pressure you to cover your firearm. If it is consensual, and I WANT to talk to a police officer, that is one thing, but I cannot and should not be forced to talk to him so you feel better. Why should your feelings trump my rights??

    Also, someone who is bent on doing harm is not going to advertise it by OCing...
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  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I think its a combination of all of the above. I think that the Oc'er is the biggest halfwit. Not for what he was doing, but for how he was doing it. He's right in the the mix with all of them. He has the verbal skills of a 3 year old and he aint got enough sense to pour pee out of a boot. Not exactly the best picture for the OC movement.
    Are we watching the same vid? He cited case law to support his position and responded appropriately to the officer's questions while all the officer could come up with is pathetic excuses to keep requesting the guy's ID.

    Are the only people allowed to stand up for their rights men who are over 6'/230 lbs (all muscle, of course) with deep voices? How quick does this thread get closed when the physical attributes of LEO's start getting presented?

    LEO's are supposed to enforce the law, how are we to trust them to do this when they are obviously ignorant of it? - especially when it involves such a simple, straight forward issue.
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  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Dept quotas don't justify this.
    There are those, even on this board, that believe that if it stops just one bad guy that it is justified.

    Michael

  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    It only takes FIVE MINUTES for an LEO to ask a few questions and avert what could be a bad day for someone. You may think it's a waste of your time....but if he stops a thug or gang member for five minutes....that time is justified.
    But it does not do that . It is a case of a LEO taking the Law in his hands and trying to enforce something that is not law and in many case is against the law to do. Just because he thinks he is the only one that should have a fire arm. His time would be much better spent deal with the dealers on the corner. The crack house on 24 and national that everyone knows about.
    The dozens of wanted felons everyone know are in the area but DA won't deal with.
    Instead he is busting a person that has broken no law nor given any reason to think they have..
    No madder what anyone say every time you are stopped by LEO office a report is made it shows the time your name and HIS reason for the stop. You may never see what he wrote down,
    But others will.
    He won't stop the gang banger, heck he already knows the guy has a dozen convictions is out on bail if he does the ACLU and half the City leaders will be after his job if he does.
    Welcome to the world we created.
    Enforce the law and not try to use your position to enforce your political agenda. If they did that maybe many of us would chose not to carry at all.
    It is the lawless Cities they have created that forces us to carry. I wish the heck I did not need to I hate carrying it is a pain in the neck.
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  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    So how do you determine the difference between the two people? What if they got a call about a man...or woman walking down the street with a gun...did not respond...and they killed 5 people? The only way they can determine if you are hostile or not is to stop you and ask a few question. If that is what it takes to keep the streets safe and people from getting killed...what is the big deal? You think your rights are violated by being stopped...what about innocent people who are shot everyday? What about their rights? If I OC and get stopped for identification....no big deal. You make yourself look suspicious by refusing to show ID.....JMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    Nothing is absolute sir...as for your 5 mins of wasted time....after your first stop by an LEO....they know you....may never happen again. Again....5 mins of you valuable lunch time is worth saving someones life....or I should say I would donate 5 mins of my lunch to save a life.
    So how do you feel about the Patriot Act?
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  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Me too.

    On the other hand, if I was getting stopped and intereviewed only a daily basis, I might just change the behavior that is causing it.

    Its not a perfect solution but at least I wouldn't get my blood pressure raised by a cop driving by.

    And, as much as I hate to admit it, when new laws come into existence, it could take a long time for the Cops to be made aware of it and for their behavior to change accordingly. That I know for a fact because I have instructed several depts. on CHL here in Arkansas at various times.

    When all they know is what they are taught from the Academy that any call to a MWAG could be their last, and in some citys the presence of a gun is absolutley evil,
    then they hear from some half wit of a Chief to check everyone no matter what, it can be confusing and some of them just dont know how to act. Since the abscense of Common Sense has almost been achieved, its only going to get worse.
    This post is in response to the portion in "bold" and directed to the thread as a whole and NOT directly to you, Hotguns;

    He shouldn't have to change his behavior. On the previous hand, if the police are stopping and interviewing him on a daily basis so that he will reach the same conclusion that was just articulated then this is as wrong as wrong can get. This is what I was referring to earlier when I said that it is above the pay-grade of LEO to modify behavior that they do not agree with - assuming said behavior is legal behavior. The OC'er should not have to modify his behavior because someone doesn't like to see him practice the rights that have been granted to him within the community he resides. Earlier I said that we shouldn't fight with LEOs if we don't like the laws that are in place, we should do what we can to have said laws changed. The same goes for LEO, if they do not like OC'ing and they feel it puts their lives as well as the community in danger, then it is not up to them to fight with persons exercising their rights under the law. They should do what they can within their powers to have the laws changed.

    Before reading this thread, I didn't see a very good reason for someone to withhold their ID if stopped. I just thought that it had to do with an individual making a decision to not give up a right they have, etc. Now, I see that they may have a good reason. If its really true that there's a record made with every stop and your name will be on that record then I'm not so sure I want to release my name either. Even if the record is not admissible in court, who is to say that it will not generate bias in the future? "Oh, so-and-so was stopped according to this report last week and now I'm being called to detain him tonight - he must be troubled and now a person of suspicion, etc."

  13. #87
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentcursor View Post
    Let's make it simple - an officer can pull you over for driving down the street, but that doesn't mean he has a legal right to. He has to observe you violating the law. The person in the video was not violating the law. Change the 911 call to this:Caller: Yes, I'd like to report a man driving a car.Operator: Is he doing anything illegal.Caller: No, he's just driving a car and I don't like that.Operator: This is for emergency calls only. Please hang up immediately.Now with the officer and the gentleman:Officer: Sir, please step out of the vehicle.Driver: What did I do, officer?Officer: We received a call that you were driving a car. This is a common occurrence.Driver: Was I violating any laws?Officer: No, sir. Now may I see your driver's license and registration.The guy in the video is standing up for his rights. People who find that objectionable are just used to the police overstepping their legal bounds and hav lost the ability to stand up for their constitutional rights.
    Hoe many times have you heard of anyone carrying a car into a school and killing students? your analogy are silly at best.
    Last edited by P95; July 7th, 2012 at 02:01 PM.

  14. #88
    Senior Member Array Cokeman's Avatar
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    No, he's right. Give up your rights and it's all over.
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    Your logic and question are silly at best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Simple, the rights exists until the people either voluntarily give it up to the Government or the government illegally takes it and the people fail to object.

    Michael
    agreed
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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