police stop man for open carrying (vid) - Page 9

police stop man for open carrying (vid)

This is a discussion on police stop man for open carrying (vid) within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BWillis57 Yes, I do think it would be justified, if not more so, since carrying concealed isn't legal without a permit, making ...

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Thread: police stop man for open carrying (vid)

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWillis57 View Post
    Yes, I do think it would be justified, if not more so, since carrying concealed isn't legal without a permit, making it more likely that someone could be breaking the law.
    Under your rationale police can stop any driver just to check if they are licensed. The police need not have a RAS, other than "a person driving a car makes it more likely that the person could be breaking the law than a person not driving a car."

    But that is clearly not the law. Police must have RAS that a crime was, is or about to be committed, or have PC for an arrest. Merely carrying a gun or driving a car is not RAS that a crime is, has or was committed.


  2. #122
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    Why do you think it is publicly accepted in Wyoming? My guess would be because people are used to seeing it. How do people get used to seeing it unless gun owners do it?
    I'd say it's publicly accepted as most are ranchers and hardy country people. No mall rats there. They are at ease with it because, like you say, used to it and it's a way of life. Besides, there are things in the mountains that will eat you. The Libs in the metropolition areas will never let anyone get used to it and I'm in no mood to be a crash test dummy
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
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  3. #123
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Maybe we should all just report to the police station or to a LEO each day present an ID ask if they any question for us. Summit to any thing they ask of us.
    Ever look at how many LEO officers every year are locked up for major crimes ? The number is staggering and there are many more they just let go.
    We just had another one she was covering up a murder her boy friend committed.
    Had one last year was going around raping women he stop. Every year many are involved in drunken off duty bar fights often with a gun involved.
    Not the kind of people I want making up laws to stop me .

  4. #124
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPro.40 View Post
    I'd say it's publicly accepted as most are ranchers and hardy country people. No mall rats there. They are at ease with it because, like you say, used to it and it's a way of life. Besides, there are things in the mountains that will eat you. The Libs in the metropolition areas will never let anyone get used to it and I'm in no mood to be a crash test dummy
    Fair enough. I generally don't want to be a crash test dummy either. It doesn't stop me from OCing, but we have statewide preemption here, and the LEOs are educated annually on the legality of OC (although that doesn't entirely stop the negative encounters).

    From what I hear, in MO, OC is a very controversial thing to do.
    DPro.40 likes this.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    It completely amazes me that people think it's OK for the police to keep doing the same thing over and over. The guy in the video was arrested once (charges dropped) and stopped three or four more times by the same police department FOR NOT BREAKING THE LAW.

    All you "just let the police check you" are either crazy or you're not being truthful with yourself. By my fifth stop FOR NOT BREAKING THE LAW I would be seriously angry. I wouldn't sound half as nice or as friendly as the kid in the video.

    The second part of this is that when there is a call then there is a report. You give your ID and then your name goes in a report (Yeah, yeah. Call it by whatever name you want....call log, record of conversation...whatever). Your name goes into a database. Then that database get's searched if you ever have a real contact with police, like after a SD shooting.

    That's when the fun really starts. "OK Mr. atctimmy, you said you had to shoot this here BG but it says in my records you've been stopped 5 times for suspicious behavior involving a gun and arrested once. I don't think you're telling us the whole truth".......

    And so you go right down the railroad. Sure you will probably be found not guilty but you had to spend the 100K that was going to put your kids through college.
    I agree.

    The thing that's sad is that in reality, they don't have to have much of a reason to pull you over/stop you. Just about anything you can do can be interpreted as "suspicious behavior". I was with my cousin and my brother one night and we were driving through the small town where I used to live when I was a kid. My cousin and I were in our early 20s and my brother sitting in the back seat was in his mid-teens. Just for sentimentality sake, I asked my cousin to drive past the house I used to live in. As we were driving through the neighborhood we saw a police car. We fell in behind the police car and was going to follow him out of the subdivision. He pulls over to let us by him. We continue to drive and then he falls in behind us. Wouldn't you know it, before we could even get out of the city limits, we were pulled over. No one was drinking, we weren't speeding, we used our turning signals, our brake lights were working and our tags were up-to-date. He said he pulled us over because we "looked suspicious" and there had been a lot of burglaries recently. If this had been an up-scale or even a middle-class neighbor then I might have been more inclined to believe him. The thing of it is though is that this is a really modest rural community and the people in the houses we were driving by most likely didn't have anything to take. I'm not putting them down but they are poor people.

    Well of course the first thing he did was to ask us our business. He then asked for everyone's IDs. My brother didn't have one - he was too young to have a driver's license so what would he have had? The guy then asks him for his social security number. My brother says he didn't know and he acted like he didn't believe him like he was lying. Things may be different today but I doubt many kids that are 14-15 years old know their social security number. I didn't memorize mine until I got to college and that was from filling out so many forms, etc.

    We waited in the car to give him time to run our IDs. He comes back and lets us go. I called my local police department the next day and explained the encounter because I didn't feel comfortable about what had transpired. They said he didn't do anything wrong and there was nothing I could do about it. I would imagine that a court would meet me with the same cavalier attitude. In my case, I really wouldn't have a leg to stand on because I was under a "reasonable suspicion".

    I imagine that the same reason I was given could also be used if a LEO wants to stop you for OC'ing. All he has to do is say there's been criminal activity in the area and you look "suspicious". I was even once pulled over once and told that my car looked like it had a leaky exhaust and he didn't want any of us to "smothercate". I'm not sure how an interview had anything to do with clearing his mind about the integrity of my exhaust but apparently it made sense to him. I'm not really sure he has the credentials to make an assessment about the mechanical integrity of a vehicle but obviously he felt he had the expertise to make a diagnosis.

    So long as a reason is given, I would imagine that it will be an uphill battle if you don't want to give your ID. I doubt there is any case law that gives a standard that can be used to determine the validity of a reason. That's the beauty about "law". Its written in an ambiguous manner so you can skate around it.
    Last edited by DefConGun; July 8th, 2012 at 12:56 AM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    Here is a real world case in Milwaukee to consider. Back about 8 years ago in the area around National and 23 to 27th the police were stopping everyone in the area at 3am to 6am.
    They were try to deal with prostitution and drug sale in the area was their claim. Strange part was NO Drug dealer that were there most of the day or prostitute were arrested. Everyone that was stopped was recorded and many were stop many times . Our office in there and we have workers that in summer start at 4am. They were stopped a lot and every time it was documented. Along comes the press and gets a hold of these stops. Next thing you know some of these workers wife's are hearing their husbands were stop in prostitution stings in Milwaukee some many times. Police Chief thoughts on the subject so what.
    All these men were doing was showing up for work. So what was the big deal get stopped show your license tell the officer your going to work.
    Not that easy, often they would search the car making people late for work. The response to question saying your going to work were met with "you know how many times I hear that one"
    The Office can not put down he stopped you because he was bored and wanted to talk or he did not like you he puts down suspicious behavior . So the next time you get stopped for anything it shows you were stopped 2 days ago for "suspicious behavior" now the Officer that has you detained is thinking what have I got here you are now maybe cuffed and or having your car ripped apart.
    Much more to it than simple saying so what if they do it.
    Point well taken. And in this matter, you really have the cards stacked against you. After all, they have a reason to stop you and by law, you can't refuse to provide your ID. Your name goes down in the record - for how long?

  7. #127
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    Thinking about my last two posts and thinking about how the law says that YOU must be under a "reasonable suspicion", I'm wondering if you have to provide (by law) your ID because you're in an area that has been plagued with un-lawful activity. Maybe there's a different law that says that you are required but it wouldn't be covered under the one we've been discussing thus far, right?

  8. #128
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    Iknew I had saved this. This is the Milwaukee Chief of police after he was told flat out it wass not aginst the law and he had to right to do this he made it clear he was then and still is above the law.
    Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn said he'll continue to tell officers they can't assume people are carrying guns legally in a city that has seen nearly 200 homicides in the past two years.

    "My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we'll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it," Flynn said. "Maybe I'll end up with a protest of cowboys. In the meantime, I've got serious offenders with access to handguns. It's irresponsible to send a message to them that if they just carry it openly no one can bother them."

    He has illegally take many fire arms and is still refuse to return the with out a long tied up court fight on your tax dollar. He is not the only one.

  9. #129
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    For all those that think the OC'er is wrong or a jerk for "challenging the system", think about this -
    1) the system says OC is legal,
    2) the system says an officer can't use OC as an excuse to stop a person,
    3) the system says an officer can't demand an ID if there's no crime suspected.

    The reality is that it is the officer that is challenging the system, not the OC'er.
    ericb327, mlr1m, Badey and 2 others like this.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    Fair enough. I generally don't want to be a crash test dummy either. It doesn't stop me from OCing, but we have statewide preemption here, and the LEOs are educated annually on the legality of OC (although that doesn't entirely stop the negative encounters).

    From what I hear, in MO, OC is a very controversial thing to do.
    Yes, they will go Rodney King on you. St Louis is a rough place. Two to three shooting a night. Bangers mainly. Detroit has nothing on St Louis
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
    Ronald Reagan

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I'm going to let you in on a little secret. I already knew what you thought about the Patriot Act.
    Since you can read my mind....what am I thinking now?.....what about now?.....and now? LOL....

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Agreed, but that place is probably one that operates under a totalitarian type of government. Or at least one that is in the process of becoming one.

    Michael
    Not even close.

  13. #133
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    For all those that think the OC'er is wrong or a jerk for "challenging the system", think about this -
    1) the system says OC is legal,
    2) the system says an officer can't use OC as an excuse to stop a person,
    3) the system says an officer can't demand an ID if there's no crime suspected.
    The reality is that it is the officer that is challenging the system, not the OC'er.
    Can't disagree but the law is on paper only. The libs control the metropolition areas. I don't have enough money to defend myself in court and have them hold my gun in the process. It's easier to pay the CCW permit fee. I pick and choose my battles. I deal with what Im dealt. I'm not a sheep, I'm just patient. I dont understand those that provoke unrest when there are other options. If you can OC then you can CCW. As I grow older Id like to think I have gotten smarter. For those that wish to push the envelope, good luck. You won't see any knots on my head and I'll get to go home every evening and upholster my Sig. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone LEO ignorance of the law but it goes the a left leaning mind set. Disarm the public. Even if the mindset changed I'd still CCW as thats my preference.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
    Ronald Reagan

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPro.40 View Post
    Can't disagree but the law is on paper only. The libs control the metropolition areas. I don't have enough money to defend myself in court and have them hold my gun in the process. It's easier to pay the CCW permit fee. I pick and choose my battles. I deal with what Im dealt. I'm not a sheep, I'm just patient. I dont understand those that provoke unrest when there are other options. If you can OC then you can CCW. As I grow older Id like to think I have gotten smarter. For those that wish to push the envelope, good luck. You won't see any knots on my head and I'll get to go home every evening and upholster my Sig. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone LEO ignorance of the law but it goes the a left leaning mind set. Disarm the public. Even if the mindset changed I'd still CCW as thats my preference.
    Why should someone CC if they can OC..........because it is convemient for the LEO's and others. Just makes me sick when folks think we need to suck up for the sake of convenience.
    Badey and FTG-05 like this.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Why should someone CC if they can OC..........because it is convemient for the LEO's and others. Just makes me sick when folks think we need to suck up for the sake of convenience.
    Call it what you will. I call it preservation in a set of rules I can't control. Go get some Pepto and feel better. It's my preference. I don't need to do anything. I could choose not to carry at all if I don't want too. I didn't see in any of my post where I said I needed to do anything. It's my choice as its my preference as its, I suppose, its yours to OC. If I was in a more friendly gun environment I might too. It's easy for you to judge from one of the most gun friendly states around.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
    Ronald Reagan

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