My thoughts on interaction with LEO in a MWAG call

This is a discussion on My thoughts on interaction with LEO in a MWAG call within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mcp1810 Unfortunately it is not always that easy. Assignments change. If a guy has been working exclusively traffic, say collision reconstruction, for ...

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Thread: My thoughts on interaction with LEO in a MWAG call

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Unfortunately it is not always that easy. Assignments change. If a guy has been working exclusively traffic, say collision reconstruction, for the last ten years and now makes Sergeant and gets kicked to a patrol shift how much time do you give him to learn everything a patrol officer should know? Do you really want him looking up the laws on his smart phone while he is responding through your neighborhood? Some times they have to show up, stabilize the situation and then sort it all out.
    Maybe he shouldn't make sergeant if he doesn't know the laws. IMO
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    I will second that opinion; courtesy and respect have gotten me out of a ticket on occasion.
    Totally agree.....cool heads prevail.

  4. #33
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    Depends on how the LEO reacts. Here in GA about two years ago a licensed carrier, after informing an LEO that he was armed, was told to step out of the car and the LEO pulled his weapon, pointed at the guy's head, disarmed him, and searched his car. Video here: Cobb Co. GA Traffic Stop - YouTube

    No sound, but the dude was about 5 pounds away from a .40 through his brain. If you are ADD start watching at 2:45.

    As a result of this civil rights fiasco, Cobb county officers were all trained on how to deal with lawful carries. Part of that training, I assume, is to not draw a weapon and flush the constitution down the toilet.

    There are still a lot of places where LEO's are not properly trained in the law. Their response may render any of your intentions moot.

    Not LEO bashing. Just saying sometimes events are beyond our control.

    EDIT: I know this is not a MWAG call, but just the same - officer dealing with a legally armed individual.

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    Depends on how the LEO reacts. Here in GA about two years ago a licensed carrier, after informing an LEO that he was armed, was told to step out of the car and the LEO pulled his weapon, pointed at the guy's head, disarmed him, and searched his car. Video here: Cobb Co. GA Traffic Stop - YouTube

    No sound, but the dude was about 5 pounds away from a .40 through his brain. If you are ADD start watching at 2:45.

    As a result of this civil rights fiasco, Cobb county officers were all trained on how to deal with lawful carries. Part of that training, I assume, is to not draw a weapon and flush the constitution down the toilet.

    There are still a lot of places where LEO's are not properly trained in the law. Their response may render any of your intentions moot.

    Not LEO bashing. Just saying sometimes events are beyond our control.

    EDIT: I know this is not a MWAG call, but just the same - officer dealing with a legally armed individual.
    Does this moron still have a job?
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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    Maybe he shouldn't make sergeant if he doesn't know the laws. IMO
    Well let's see. Typical academy is 20 weeks or so. In that time they learn law, do PT, learn defensive tactics, learn how to shoot, learn how to drive, how to preserve evidence, first aid, report writing, and other assorted things.

    How long does it take full time to get through law school? And you expect every officer to know every law for their jurisdiction off the top of their head?
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  7. #36
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    Dunno. There's a thread on another form that's about 50 pages long. Basically a parade of horribles - training that scared the bejeezus out of young rookies (give of civvie an inch they will kill you), lack of knowledge of carry laws, etc. Lots of things righted after this wrong.

    Point is I've yet to be stopped by an officer when carrying, and I've heard plenty of good things from many that have been. But I will be respectful and guarded. Ya never know if the officer is in great fear when the knowledge of a weapon comes into play, and I'd do my best to get a read.

  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Well let's see. Typical academy is 20 weeks or so. In that time they learn law, do PT, learn defensive tactics, learn how to shoot, learn how to drive, how to preserve evidence, first aid, report writing, and other assorted things.

    How long does it take full time to get through law school? And you expect every officer to know every law for their jurisdiction off the top of their head?
    Something as common as gun laws they should be able to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Well let's see. Typical academy is 20 weeks or so. In that time they learn law, do PT, learn defensive tactics, learn how to shoot, learn how to drive, how to preserve evidence, first aid, report writing, and other assorted things.

    How long does it take full time to get through law school? And you expect every officer to know every law for their jurisdiction off the top of their head?
    No way anyone could be expected to know every law on the books. However could we agree that a person should know the law he is in the process of attempting to enforce? That ordinary citizens should not be detained while a government worker tries to determine if a law has been broken?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    Kentucky is also pushing for Constitutional Carry. What happens to our reciprocity if it passes?
    Well, it shouldn't change anything for those who still get a permit. The push isn't to get rid of the permit, but to make it legal to carry, for TN residents, within the state. The option would still be there to go through the permit training and get the permit if you wanted.
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    Believe it or not on larger departments you will have officers that specialize in certain things much like doctors do. I would not go to a proctologist to deal with an ear infection. I can generally pick and choose on stuff like that. Cops don't have that luxury. When a MWAG call come in should the alcohol enforcement specialist and the commercial vehicle inspector ignore the call and wait for the guy from the firearms task force to come and handle it? If you pull up at holiday sobriety check point who do you think they staffing those with? It is going to be alcohol, drug, and traffic guys. Us folks that legally carry are really a very tiny segment of our population. And we are generally a fairly law abiding group as well so any particular officer will theoretically have fewer contacts with us than the average citizen.
    I don't expect every officer to know everything. What I do expect them to know is who to call to find out.
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Unfortunately it is not always that easy. Assignments change. If a guy has been working exclusively traffic, say collision reconstruction, for the last ten years and now makes Sergeant and gets kicked to a patrol shift how much time do you give him to learn everything a patrol officer should know? Do you really want him looking up the laws on his smart phone while he is responding through your neighborhood? Some times they have to show up, stabilize the situation and then sort it all out.
    If they do not know the law they should not be trying to figure out if a law was broken. How about we twist this around...if a LEO stops you and he has to look up a law then arrest you, you should not be prosecuted because how on earth could you have known what the law is if the LEO does not? Really simple.

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    If they do not know the law they should not be trying to figure out if a law was broken. How about we twist this around...if a LEO stops you and he has to look up a law then arrest you, you should not be prosecuted because how on earth could you have known what the law is if the LEO does not? Really simple.
    So an officer who is sitting with his radar gun doing selective traffic enforcement around an elementary school should not respond to a MWAG call at that school if he does not know all of the firearm specific laws?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    If they do not know the law they should not be trying to figure out if a law was broken.
    So an officer who is sitting with his radar gun doing selective traffic enforcement around an elementary school should not respond to a MWAG call at that school if he does not know all of the firearm specific laws?
    IMO, responding to check out the call is fine. MWAG sighting is just that. It's a sighting only. Out in general public areas, any stop or arrest should certainly be required to stand on fact and not weak, flighty memory of some portion of firearms-related laws that might or might not have anything to do with anything. At a school's a different issue, if the LEO knows that (presumably K12) schools are one of the "protected" no-gun zones for most folks. At a K12 school, I'd think it's reasonable to check for a valid CHL. At a post-secondary school (assuming that state doesn't disallow), I'd think it unreasonable unless there are other indicators of threat (ie, behavior) supporting the mere sighting as "threatening."
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    Licensed professional have a standard and duty of care. Legally, not Meeting that duty of care that results in Damage results in liability. Police officers have a duty to know the law. If they don't remember a traffic infraction the damages are low. If they make a false arrest because they don't know felony laws than damages are higher. Police officers should know the law, specifically when it comes to arrestable offenses.
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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott625 View Post
    Licensed professional have a standard and duty of care. Legally, not Meeting that duty of care that results in Damage results in liability. Police officers have a duty to know the law. If they don't remember a traffic infraction the damages are low. If they make a false arrest because they don't know felony laws than damages are higher. Police officers should know the law, specifically when it comes to arrestable offenses.
    That is all well and good in theory. In Texas the only traffic violations that an officer is required to issue a citation for are seat belt violations and open container. Everything else is officers discretion as to citation or custodial arrest. So other than those two offenses you expect every LEO in Texas to have every traffic law memorized? And you also seem to be assuming that a weapons offense is a felony. In many cases it is only a misdemeanor.

    ETA: And also, it is not always a case of the officer not knowing the law. If you Sixto and I were standing side by side at the flag pole at my sons school, two of us are breaking the law. Until the officer gets there and goes through everyone's ID's how is that officer supposed to know who it is that is breaking the law there?
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