My thoughts on interaction with LEO in a MWAG call - Page 4

My thoughts on interaction with LEO in a MWAG call

This is a discussion on My thoughts on interaction with LEO in a MWAG call within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It seems to me that we can make a bit of a distinction here. They may not know the all the laws and can't be ...

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Thread: My thoughts on interaction with LEO in a MWAG call

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    It seems to me that we can make a bit of a distinction here. They may not know the all the laws and can't be expected to, but they shouldn't be declaring someone being guilty of a crime when they are ignorant of the law. An example being not knowing that a particular state has non resident reciprocity. They may not know this and not knowing shouldn't give them grounds to say someone who has a valid permit is unlawful.

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  2. #47
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    ... but they shouldn't be declaring someone being guilty of a crime when they are ignorant of the law.
    Just so.
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  3. #48
    Senior Member Array Super Trucker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    I live in West Tennessee. Near Memphis but in a small town out in Shelby County. Open carry is no uncommon here. It is fairly common in fact. (Tennessee is a 100% open carry OK state. Anyplace it is legal to carry, it is legal to open carry) The Shelby County Sheriffs Department is pretty well trained when it comes to interacting with legally armed and openly carrying civilians. Never had a problem.

    I have never been the subject of a MWAG call but if I was, and a Deputy asked for my ID I don't think I would refuse to give it to them. I will hand over my permit because I am legally obligated to do so in Tennessee. Now, I will still record the interaction and I would expect and hope that the deputy would not mind this. Regardless, I'm still going to record it.

    Now, why I personally do not get too terribly bent out of shape about cops not being 100% knowledgeable about the laws as it pertains to open carry or even concealed carry in a lot of places. Cops tend to know the laws that they are called on to enforce the most often. LEO's have to deal with drunks drivers, drunks being disorderly, shop lifters, speeders, reckless drivers, domestic abuse, drug abusers, meth cookers, burglers, and all manner of other offenders far more often than they are called upon to deal with someone open carrying or someone who is concealed carrying and happens to let his gun be seen by some jumpy sheeple idiot. So it stands to reason that they may not know that particular law or set of laws governing that action as well as all those others. So, I for one am not going to give the cop a hard time.

    That being said, as I stated, I am going to record any interaction with LEO and, if the LEO gets the big bad "I AM THE LAW" attitude, I'm not completely sure how it will all shake out but I am don't think it would go to smooth. I hate that attitude but would try to keep my own in check.

    Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there so some of us might think about it. We can't expect the police to know the letter of every law. Even the pin heads who write and pass the laws don't know the letter of all of the crap they pass. It is unrealistic to expect the cops to know them all. The fact that they know the ones they deal with most often is understandable.
    In this day and age where cops have computers in cars and many departments even issue smart phones, not knowing the law is no excuse.
    It wouldn't take much time to look it up and be knowledgeable before harassing somebody.
    Why is OK for a cop to not know laws but you must or face sometimes severe penalties. No thanks on the double standard, I don't like it so doing nothing is not the answer.
    What do you envision a cops job duties are? I was under the impression they were to enforce laws, which would seem to me that they should know the laws they are wanting to get paid to enforce.

  4. #49
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    Folks, this is drifting closer and closer to a "Cop Bashing Thread" which is not tolerated in these here parts of the interworld. Let's get it back on target before I buckle up and bust up the fun.



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  5. #50
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    It seems to me that we can make a bit of a distinction here. They may not know the all the laws and can't be expected to, but they shouldn't be declaring someone being guilty of a crime when they are ignorant of the law. An example being not knowing that a particular state has non resident reciprocity. They may not know this and not knowing shouldn't give them grounds to say someone who has a valid permit is unlawful.

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    Another good example is about police scanners. Some states are legal in vehicles and others are not

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    That is all well and good in theory. In Texas the only traffic violations that an officer is required to issue a citation for are seat belt violations and open container. Everything else is officers discretion as to citation or custodial arrest. So other than those two offenses you expect every LEO in Texas to have every traffic law memorized? And you also seem to be assuming that a weapons offense is a felony. In many cases it is only a misdemeanor.

    ETA: And also, it is not always a case of the officer not knowing the law. If you Sixto and I were standing side by side at the flag pole at my sons school, two of us are breaking the law. Until the officer gets there and goes through everyone's ID's how is that officer supposed to know who it is that is breaking the law there?
    I expect if an officer arrests someone that they know the law they are arresting them for. Just like if a CPA does my taxes that he knows what a valid deduction is and what isn't. If he does it wrong and I get charged penalties and interest he will be guilty of negligence. It's his duty to know the tax rules, if I am paying him to do my taxes.

    This is not cop bashing or CPA bashing. It's saying professionals have a duty to know the law. Ignorance is never an excuse for a layperson either. However, I don't expect a cop or CPA to know every law, especially the more esoteric laws, but if an arrest is made then they had better be sure of what they are arresting for.

    Isn't your example of being detained and not arrested?
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  7. #52
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Most officers have a book issued with the state laws that they are issued for reference. When filling out a citation of arrest or just the issuing of a citation, it is not uncommon for officers to need to look up the offense to apply the correct law on paper.

    There can be so many different elements that change the varying degrees, that it's impossible to know them all. An example may be something as difficult as trespassing. Is it , 1, 2 or 3rd degree?

    Early in my rookie days, I responded to resident complaints of someone peeling out and squealing their tires in a parking lot. When I arrived I caught them in the act. But I was unsure of the correct statue. Was it reckless driving? Disturbing the peace? Or a dozen other possible violations?

    With the help of a veteran officer, it was " improper start from a parked position".

    Just keeping up with laws of your state, and then local ordinances on top of that can be impossible.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott625 View Post
    I expect if an officer arrests someone that they know the law they are arresting them for. Just like if a CPA does my taxes that he knows what a valid deduction is and what isn't. If he does it wrong and I get charged penalties and interest he will be guilty of negligence. It's his duty to know the tax rules, if I am paying him to do my taxes.

    This is not cop bashing or CPA bashing. It's saying professionals have a duty to know the law. Ignorance is never an excuse for a layperson either. However, I don't expect a cop or CPA to know every law, especially the more esoteric laws, but if an arrest is made then they had better be sure of what they are arresting for.

    Isn't your example of being detained and not arrested?
    That is what we are talking about here. A short term investigative detention while the officer determines what if any laws are actually being broken. By the way, in my school scenario you are Sixto are in violation of federal law and I am in the clear. Another example Katy Mills mall. We meet for lunch in the food court. We are both carrying concealed with our valid permits but somehow someone figures out that we are carrying and the police are called. You came into the mall through Bed Bath and Beyond. I came into the mall at the entrance by the theater. You are legal, I am guilty of a class A misdemeanor. There is sufficient probable cause to charge both of us. Or the officer can talk to us for five minutes, send you on your way and charge only me.

    The police scanners Suntzu was refering to can also get tricky. I have a ham license. If we are in a state such as Indiana that prohibits mobile use of scanners excepting folks like me, and we are in your vehicle with an installed scanner, does my presence make your scanner legal? What about if it is a hand held model?
    Should the officer just charge you and let the lawyers sort it out, or should we take a few minutes and maybe all part company happier and wiser?
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  9. #54
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    That is what we are talking about here. A short term investigative detention while the officer determines what if any laws are actually being broken. By the way, in my school scenario you are Sixto are in violation of federal law and I am in the clear. Another example Katy Mills mall. We meet for lunch in the food court. We are both carrying concealed with our valid permits but somehow someone figures out that we are carrying and the police are called. You came into the mall through Bed Bath and Beyond. I came into the mall at the entrance by the theater. You are legal, I am guilty of a class A misdemeanor. There is sufficient probable cause to charge both of us. Or the officer can talk to us for five minutes, send you on your way and charge only me.

    The police scanners Suntzu was refering to can also get tricky. I have a ham license. If we are in a state such as Indiana that prohibits mobile use of scanners excepting folks like me, and we are in your vehicle with an installed scanner, does my presence make your scanner legal? What about if it is a hand held model?
    Should the officer just charge you and let the lawyers sort it out, or should we take a few minutes and maybe all part company happier and wiser?
    The part that I highlighted in bold is the main issue for many of us.
    Should a person who is not breaking any laws be subject to detainment simply because the Government has no proof of a crime? That the citizen then has to present proof that he is acting within the law? The Government should not have to stop you and ask if you are breaking the law. They should know that before they interfered in your life.
    If I am breaking a law arrest or cite me for it. If I am not then leave me alone to enjoy my life. Simple.

    Michael
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  10. #55
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    We are talking here about a man with a gun call. Ok fine, a man with a gun in and of itself in many states is not a crime. Neither is sitting in a panel van with a camera, pillow cases,condoms, and duct tape at an elementary school playground during recess.

    Hypothetically speaking.....
    If someone calls the police to report me sitting in that van taking pictures of little kids should the police refuse to respond because there is no evidence I am breaking the law?

    If the officer shows up should I be allowed to leave before he determines whether or not I am a registered sex offender? Until he finds out that I am there is no evidence of me breaking any law is there?
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  11. #56
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    We are talking here about a man with a gun call. Ok fine, a man with a gun in and of itself in many states is not a crime. Neither is sitting in a panel van with a camera, pillow cases,condoms, and duct tape at an elementary school playground during recess.

    Hypothetically speaking.....
    If someone calls the police to report me sitting in that van taking pictures of little kids should the police refuse to respond because there is no evidence I am breaking the law?

    If the officer shows up should I be allowed to leave before he determines whether or not I am a registered sex offender? Until he finds out that I am there is no evidence of me breaking any law is there?
    Not sure. Is there a law that requires him to stay there and answer your questions? Yes, its that simple to me.

    Michael

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    I'm going back on track with the statement that if I were approached by a LEO about a MWAG call, I'm going to do all I can to make it as easy and painless as possible for both parties involved. You never know when you just might be doing "slightly over" the speed limit and meet the same officer. Mutual courtesy goes a long way.
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  13. #58
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH View Post
    I'm going back on track with the statement that if I were approached by a LEO about a MWAG call, I'm going to do all I can to make it as easy and painless as possible for both parties involved. You never know when you just might be doing "slightly over" the speed limit and meet the same officer. Mutual courtesy goes a long way.
    It is truly sad that an officer will give one person a ticket and another a warning based on which one is more polite or how that officer perceives ones attitude. Some folks come across naturally friendly, others not, though they are both being courteous.

    Ya know, the day before I moved to Texas I had to put my sheep dog down. Plus the stress of the move. I was grumpy. If a LEO stopped me I would not have bit his head off but I would not have been the most firendliest person on the planet. Plus, I wouldn't kiss up and tell him of my woes....so should I get a ticket instead of a warning?

    Yada yada..I know, human nature...don't make it right.

    One final thought: Almost everyone here says CANT like it is a motto. But if it can get them out of a ticket they will make sure they let the LEO know they have a weapon on them for "the officer's safety" and to be "courteous and polite". And oh, to get out of a ticket.

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array USPnTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Most officers have a book issued with the state laws that they are issued for reference. When filling out a citation of arrest or just the issuing of a citation, it is not uncommon for officers to need to look up the offense to apply the correct law on paper.

    There can be so many different elements that change the varying degrees, that it's impossible to know them all. An example may be something as difficult as trespassing. Is it , 1, 2 or 3rd degree?

    Early in my rookie days, I responded to resident complaints of someone peeling out and squealing their tires in a parking lot. When I arrived I caught them in the act. But I was unsure of the correct statue. Was it reckless driving? Disturbing the peace? Or a dozen other possible violations?

    With the help of a veteran officer, it was " improper start from a parked position".

    Just keeping up with laws of your state, and then local ordinances on top of that can be impossible.
    I agree with all the regulations, laws, city ordinances and subsequent revisions, it can be overwhelming. However, at least you referenced the local statute and called upon additional expertise to ensure you were correct in your application of the law. I feel that in this day and age we should all be able to demand that all officers do the same. If you don't fully understand the letter of the law there are many options for an LEO to obtain the knowledge needed to apply the law properly!
    "Do not fear those who disagree with you; fear those that do and are too cowardly to admit it" - Napoleon

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Not sure. Is there a law that requires him to stay there and answer your questions? Yes, its that simple to me.

    Michael
    But should the police respond at all? The caller has given them no idication I have broken any laws.
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