Kid in Birmingham OCing Rifle - Not Guilty on All Counts! - Page 5

Kid in Birmingham OCing Rifle - Not Guilty on All Counts!

This is a discussion on Kid in Birmingham OCing Rifle - Not Guilty on All Counts! within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Harryball It may be LEGAL, but it is still STUPID. We are not in the back woods here. A pistol holstered is ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    It may be LEGAL, but it is still STUPID. We are not in the back woods here. A pistol holstered is one thing. The rifle is a show of STUPIDITY.....and in society is DOES MATTER.
    I agree that in society (excited soccer moms, idiots that don't know the law etc...) it does matter. Does not excuse the government for harrassment which they do all the time with OC'ers. That is the difference.

    When I had my first MWAG call it was exactly how it should have been.
    LEO:How are you doing today sir?...
    ME:Good and you.
    LEO:We had a MWAG cal (or something like that)
    ME: OK.I understand (something like that)
    LEO: Well, I had to respond..you have a good day.
    ME: You too.

    No need to ask for ID to do a check on me or anything. Yes, I understand asking the kid for proof of age. After that it is done. PERIOD. And Harry, you know that the government all the time persistently asks for ID to run a check on a person when there is a MWAG call which IMO is flat out wrong.

    Anyway, how is your day going?


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    And society is free within reason to voice their disdain for stupid things. Right up until their right to protest his actions might cause him harm.
    The Government does not have that freedom. It must act within the law using only those powers granted it under those laws. The people and society can up to a point punish stupidity. The Government cannot.

    Michael
    Very well put. I think you should voice this to California..... as I see they are...(the Government.)
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  3. #63
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I agree that in society (excited soccer moms, idiots that don't know the law etc...) it does matter. Does not excuse the government for harrassment which they do all the time with OC'ers. That is the difference.

    When I had my first MWAG call it was exactly how it should have been.
    LEO:How are you doing today sir?...
    ME:Good and you.
    LEO:We had a MWAG cal (or something like that)
    ME: OK.I understand (something like that)
    LEO: Well, I had to respond..you have a good day.
    ME: You too.

    No need to ask for ID to do a check on me or anything. Yes, I understand asking the kid for proof of age. After that it is done. PERIOD. And Harry, you know that the government all the time persistently asks for ID to run a check on a person when there is a MWAG call which IMO is flat out wrong.

    Anyway, how is your day going?
    They do ask for ID because there was a call for service. I understand that it is not right, but it is the society we live in. Do I want it to go away, yes. Will it? Prob. not. Can we change that, yea, maybe in november, but we both know that we are the minority. I wish it was easy...

    My day was pretty good, how bout yours...Thanks for asking...LOL plenty of Ice tea to boot.....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  4. #64
    Member Array WHYDAH's Avatar
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    I recall a friend of mine back when I was young strapping on several pistols, one rifle across his back and one in each hand and hitchhiking out to the Issac Walton shooting range.... and he got rides out and back! Times sure have changed! I'm surprised that even gun owners bring up questions of "need" or motive for this young man toting his Garand down the street. The whole purpose of the OC movement, especially here in VA., is to reacquaint the public with the legality of private individuals being armed in public and the fact that it is a right still recognized in most places. Use it or loose it!

    If those cops truly had questions regarding the young man's age and didn't just make it up as an excuse after the fact, then I don't see an issue with them telling him about their concern and asking for ID showing his legal age. But, they arrested him anyway even after he complied. Bad call on their part.

  5. #65
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    It may be LEGAL, but it is still STUPID. We are not in the back woods here. A pistol holstered is one thing. The rifle is a show of STUPIDITY.....and in society is DOES MATTER.
    So one is only intelligent enough to carry a firearm for self defense if they are old enough and financially able to purchase a handgun and a holster?
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  6. #66
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So one is only intelligent enough to carry a firearm for self defense if they are old enough and financially able to purchase a handgun and a holster?
    I guess thats one way of looking at it...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  7. #67
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So one is only intelligent enough to carry a firearm for self defense if they are old enough and financially able to purchase a handgun and a holster?
    Some might think that a person should be a property owner. Or that they not be on the public dole (one of the old Jim Crow voting laws in Oklahoma's early days), or that only taxpayers be allowed to own weapons.
    Yes, lets bring back the Jim Crow laws.

    Michael

  8. #68
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    Thumbs up Reasonable, articulable suspicion to detain re: MWAG, etc -- in Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    They do ask for ID because there was a call for service. I understand that it is not right, but it is the society we live in. Do I want it to go away, yes. Will it? Prob. not.
    I can't address the OP State or any State other than Virginia.

    However check out: www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/1971061.pdf

    Note:

    SNIP

    "On appeal, he contends the seizure that led to discovery of the firearm was unreasonable
    under the Fourth Amendment and that the trial court should have granted his motion to suppress
    the firearm and his accompanying statements. We agree and reverse his conviction."

    SNIP

    On the afternoon of February 1, 2006, Portsmouth Detective G.B. Smith received a
    telephone call from a confidential informant. Detective Smith had “been using” this particular
    informant for over two years, and with information previously provided by the informant,
    Detective Smith had obtained “over two dozen search warrants and made over fifty arrests.”

    The informant reported to Detective Smith that he had “personally seen” a particular
    individual “in the Lincoln Park area trying to sell a large-framed handgun” the individual had in
    his possession.

    SNIP

    Detective Smith knew the police department had officers “doing an operation” in Lincoln
    Park, described as property of the Portsmouth Redevelopment and Housing Authority and a
    “high crime, high drug area.”

    SNIP

    Officer Ingram then opened the door and asked appellant to exit the vehicle,
    which he did. Officer Ingram placed appellant in handcuffs for “[the officer’s] safety because
    [he] believed [appellant] had a firearm.” Officer Ingram then started to “pat [appellant] down”
    for weapons and asked appellant whether “he had any weapons on him.” Appellant “stated yes,”
    and Officer Ingram “recovered a Ruger .357.”

    SNIP [a good review of Terry Stop cases]

    Although the informant’s information provided Officer Ingram with reasonable suspicion
    to believe appellant possessed a firearm, nothing in the record provided reasonable suspicion for
    the belief that this possession was illegal. “Absent some disqualifying status (being a felon,
    juvenile, or drug possessor) or situs (being in a place where weapons are forbidden), it is not a
    crime to possess a weapon.”
    Jackson v. Commonwealth, 41 Va. App. 211, 231, 583 S.E.2d 780,
    790 (2003) (en banc),

    [emphasis added by DaveH]

    SNIP [more good discussion of the law]

    Absent reasonable, articulable suspicion for a detention, Officer Ingram’s only immediate
    basis upon which to approach appellant was to attempt to engage him in a consensual encounter
    in the hope of gaining additional information that might provide the requisite reasonable,
    articulable suspicion for a detention or probable cause for an arrest. If Officer Ingram felt
    attempting a consensual encounter was too dangerous under the circumstances, based on his
    knowledge that appellant likely was armed, he could have avoided appellant altogether, waited
    until additional officers had arrived,

    SNIP

    Because Officer Ingram lacked reasonable, articulable suspicion to detain appellant, we
    hold the trial court erred in denying appellant’s motion to suppress the firearm and
    accompanying statements. Thus, we reverse appellant’s conviction and dismiss the indictment.
    Reversed and dismissed.



    So there is hope, IMHO.

    Getting your State's law to clearly establish that "Absent some disqualifying status (being a felon,
    juvenile, or drug possessor) or situs (being in a place where weapons are forbidden), it is not a
    crime to possess a weapon" is an important first step that we all can work toward.

    As the NRA is far more focused on the National legislation, you need to join or help create an effective grassroots RKBA organization.

    Standing on the sidelines and hoping (and/or complaining) is not the way to advance the RKBA.

    Go for it.

    Make it happen.
    Last edited by DaveH; July 13th, 2012 at 09:54 PM. Reason: added emphasis
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

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  9. #69
    Ex Member Array slave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Do you believe you should carry a rifle around on your back for self defense. Speaking of which, can anyone give me a valid reason for carrying a rifle for self defense while in a urban environment.
    Spoken like a card carrying memeber of the Brady Campaign.

    Why does he need a reason? Who defines "good" reason? Your opinion? Who cares what you think. He is legally allowed to do so, that's all the reason he needs. Period.

    You anti 2A'ers are funny.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Do you believe you should carry a rifle around on your back for self defense. Speaking of which, can anyone give me a valid reason for carrying a rifle for self defense while in a urban environment.





    Haryball.

    While this is a litlle BIT different, judging by your post it sounds as though you would be an advocate for the police busting anyone driving an automobile that can exceed the speed limit, just because government "can't" trust everyone to go the speed limit, even though its legal to own a Lamborghini and legal to drive it....so long as you drive the speed limit, and observe ALL applicable laws.

    Just because it is someone else's ox being gored, doesn't mean next time it won't be yours.
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  11. #71
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Do you believe you should carry a rifle around on your back for self defense. Speaking of which, can anyone give me a valid reason for carrying a rifle for self defense while in a urban environment.
    I was going to bust out a list of several reasons, none of which I am sure you would agree with because you don't seem to understand the meaning of the Second Amendment bu, many others have summed it up very well for you and you still don't get it so I am sure me repeating all the logic already thrown at you won't get through to you either. I think you should really reconsider whether you are a true supporter of the Second Amendment because you sound like a conditional supporter of the Second Amendment. And the condition appears to be, as long as the person carrying does so in a manner you approve of. And I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you Bub but, that isn't the way it works. As I have pointed out in relation to other members on this board, the ones I call Anti-OC'ers, you and others, are at least in part espousing an anti-gun/anti-carry point of view. You are all for people carrying as long as they do it the way you think they should. Otherwise they shouldn't carry. So you are perfectly in line with the Brandy Campaign part of the time. That should make everyone who subscribes to this line of thought think. But I suspect you, and they, will simply dismiss it. And that is the most telling aspect of all.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    As to "valid reason" or "need."

    See my rant at #312 on Us and them... - Page 7

    As much as the antis demand that there must be a demonstrated "need", I wonder if some of us aren't buying into their mantra, to some extent.

    Here in Virginia (like many other States), we got rid of some of the prior restraint on RKBA when we got rid on "may issue" -- i.e., we no longer a need to prove a "valid reason" or "need." to carry.
    EXACTLY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    It may be LEGAL, but it is still STUPID. We are not in the back woods here. A pistol holstered is one thing. The rifle is a show of STUPIDITY.....and in society is DOES MATTER.
    It is not a show of stupidity Sir. Your stance on the sight of a slung rifle in a free society is troubling. It is your opinion that it is stupid but, the fact that it is your opinion certainly does not make it correct. The fact that he broke NO laws, that he was acting completely legally and was still arrested, went to trial and was found resoundingly not guilty, and that the cops obviously by their testimony fabricated the reasoning for the arrest to cover up either their ineptitude or outright disregard for the law and how they were sworn to uphold it but instead violated it along with his rights, should show you that it was not stupidity but a free man exercising his right. A free man exercising a right is NEVER STUPIDITY. The fact that you think it is says volumes.

    I'm extremely happy that this young man was found, rightfully so, not guilty. And I hope he does file a law suit. I agree he should get his legal fees and any court costs paid by the city and should win a monetary award for punitive measure to the city. I will not speculate on the amount. It is only through this kind of action that the rotten LEO's out there who have an anti-gun mind set will be forced to learn. And the cities they work for must also learn.
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  12. #72
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    QUOTE=TN_Mike;2318839]I was going to bust out a list of several reasons, none of which I am sure you would agree with because you don't seem to understand the meaning of the Second Amendment bu, many others have summed it up very well for you and you still don't get it so I am sure me repeating all the logic already thrown at you won't get through to you either. I think you should really reconsider whether you are a true supporter of the Second Amendment because you sound like a conditional supporter of the Second Amendment. And the condition appears to be, as long as the person carrying does so in a manner you approve of. And I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you Bub but, that isn't the way it works. As I have pointed out in relation to other members on this board, the ones I call Anti-OC'ers, you and others, are at least in part espousing an anti-gun/anti-carry point of view. You are all for people carrying as long as they do it the way you think they should. Otherwise they shouldn't carry. So you are perfectly in line with the Brandy Campaign part of the time. That should make everyone who subscribes to this line of thought think. But I suspect you, and they, will simply dismiss it. And that is the most telling aspect of all.



    EXACTLY!



    It is not a show of stupidity Sir. Your stance on the sight of a slung rifle in a free society is troubling. It is your opinion that it is stupid but, the fact that it is your opinion certainly does not make it correct. The fact that he broke NO laws, that he was acting completely legally and was still arrested, went to trial and was found resoundingly not guilty, and that the cops obviously by their testimony fabricated the reasoning for the arrest to cover up either their ineptitude or outright disregard for the law and how they were sworn to uphold it but instead violated it along with his rights, should show you that it was not stupidity but a free man exercising his right. A free man exercising a right is NEVER STUPIDITY. The fact that you think it is says volumes.

    I'm extremely happy that this young man was found, rightfully so, not guilty. And I hope he does file a law suit. I agree he should get his legal fees and any court costs paid by the city and should win a monetary award for punitive measure to the city. I will not speculate on the amount. It is only through this kind of action that the rotten LEO's out there who have an anti-gun mind set will be forced to learn. And the cities they work for must also learn.[/QUOTE]





    .....


    Whoa, Mike ,
    tell us how you really feel!
    I think YOU summed it up very well!!
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  13. #73
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    So we throw out common sense and are no longer being the grey man. Is that what Im hearing. All the rest of carrying responsible and not making a seen and all of that goes out the window. The rest of this forum must be a shame, seeing how strapping on a rifle and walking down an urban street is now seen as a sensible act. Sorry guys I can not get on board with that kind of thinking.
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  14. #74
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    TN_Mike, you make a very convincing argument. This is one of the best posts I have read in a while. The premise behind shall issue is that we no longer have to show a need to be allowed to carry. I think this was a very important legal change and we must be defend it rigorously. Some states like Florida have "keep it concealed" laws. Obviously the overriding opinion in those states is "carry in a manner that is approved" meaning don't upset the sheeple. I live in a state that allows OC and support the concept as did the guy in this thread. His actions were allowed by law and we should not be quick to judge or demand that he change because it doesn't agree with our ideology.
    Edit:
    So we throw out common sense and are no longer being the grey man. Is that what Im hearing
    You beat me in timing. Being the grey man should be a choice, not a mandate.
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    I should be surprised this thread has not been closed yet but I'm not. I'm afraid to comment for fear of reprisal. Carry on!
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