new permit, ONE BIG QUESTION

This is a discussion on new permit, ONE BIG QUESTION within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by oakchas Archer, are you advocating that in an encounter with LEO, in the performance of his duties, you should say..."I've got a ...

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Thread: new permit, ONE BIG QUESTION

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Archer, are you advocating that in an encounter with LEO, in the performance of his duties, you should say..."I've got a gun!"?

    Nah... you AIN'T sayin' that, are you?

    How about "Officer, I have a legally permitted firearm on my person, I have a legal permit for same in my wallet.... How would you like me to proceed?"
    I didn't see the word gun in my post anywhere. Inform him your carrying, however you feel is appropriate. That said, I wouldn't recommend telling him "I'm packing heat!".
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    The best place to get legal information is not a gun forum - no matter how well intended the advice/opinion - but from your local Permit Office or State Police if they are the enforcement head of gun-law. Go to the horse's mouth. They know the law far better than anyone else.
    Ask any Permit Office or LEO for a Legal Opinion..? Really? The best thing they could do for you is to read you the state statute... NEVER get legal advice from a cop.. .or government official... NEVER.

    And speaking of Zimmerman... the guy who sponsored the "stand your ground law" in FL... says it was never intended to be used for "THAT" whatever "THAT" was... and he was the guy who sponsored the bill... he ought to know what his own law says.. oughtn' he?

    If you want a legal opinion... ask a judge.... good luck with that... so ask a lawyer... you will get a legal opinion... it may or may not turn out to be valid... read the law your own self...

    or, since you live in Florida... Go to This Site and get the most comprehensive book on your states laws.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    I didn't see the word gun in my post anywhere. Inform him your carrying, however you feel is appropriate. That said, I wouldn't recommend telling him "I'm packing heat!".
    the OP repeatedly asked if he should tell someone he has a gun.... you said, "yes by all means tell him" in the case of LEO...

    it's semantics I know... but it was asked... and you answered.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    I only say this b/c my post contains the same type of comment: not semantics, but assumptions on your part. Either way you are telling the LEO you have a gun, you just took the time to be specific as to how to go about it. The law in some states says you must inform LEO if you are carrying, but it doesn't specify how even though there's a proper/appreciated way to go about it and one that's not so much appreciated.

  6. #20
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    I would never mention to anyone that I'm carrying. (Except LEO, if I'm asked). That said, I disagree somewhat that you only pull your weapon out if you intend to shoot with it. I think that is too absolutist and might lead to an unnecessary shooting. I think often the mere presence of someone with an openly viewed firearm can serve to defuse a situation (without gunfire). Most (sane) people are correctly scared of an open firearm and will tend to back away from the situation. I think if I could stop a developing violent situation without having to shoot, then I'd have succeeded. Of course, the possibility and option to shoot is always still there if needed.

    On the other hand, there is the issue of brandishing. About the quickest way to lose your carry permit and possibly even get yourself charged with a crime is to brandish a weapon. Even brandishing with the best of intentions can get you charged.

    Sometimes it can be tough to know what the correct thing to do is.
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  7. #21
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    INAL, either. One part of your question involves brandishing. Threat, unnecessary escalation, drawing attention to the fact that you have a gun to influence a situation that doesn't call for lethal force are crimes. It's not a crime for your family to know that you are concealing - unless you threaten them.

    The only time you may use lethal force legally is to defend yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm or to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, strong-arm robbery, burglary or kidnapping. In these situations, tactically, talking about a gun isn't good.

    In fact, you could go from victim frying pan to fire if a violent criminal detects that you have a gun. This may be a factor in the George Zimmerman case?

    Read and train, my friend.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    I only say this b/c my post contains the same type of comment: not semantics, but assumptions on your part. Either way you are telling the LEO you have a gun, you just took the time to be specific as to how to go about it. The law in some states says you must inform LEO if you are carrying, but it doesn't specify how even though there's a proper/appreciated way to go about it and one that's not so much appreciated.
    Maybe I don't understand your post, but FL law is clear enough:
    790.06 …. The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.
    I can't put my finger on it, but IIRC, a recent FL law relaxed prohibition on printing and brief, unintentional exposure of a lethal carry weapon.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  9. #23
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    if it's a cop then yes, anyone else tell them no

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    i mean it just might be a GREAT idea to say u have a gun to diffuse a situation instead of having to brandish it and take it out of concealment...
    If you and I were about to get into an altercation and you told me that you had a weapon I would consider that to be every bit the threat to my life as brandishing the weapon would be.

    Michael

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    Florida law requires a concealed weapon to be concealed from "ordinary view." That's a visual requirement only. What you choose to state verbally has no legal bearing on anything.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    Maybe I don't understand your post, but FL law is clear enough:
    790.06 …. The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.
    I can't put my finger on it, but IIRC, a recent FL law relaxed prohibition on printing and brief, unintentional exposure of a lethal carry weapon.
    There never was any FL statute on "printing," only on "improper exhabition," which was changed to permit incidental exposure.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  13. #27
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    Guns for the permit holder are not tools of compliance, or do what I say or I will use this.... They are tools of last resort, if your in a situation which you have the mental capacity of saying this you probably should have walked away 5 minutes ago. Guns are not their for you to get your point across or to enforce the law. If thats what you think then go to the police academy. Carrying a gun gives you more of a responsibility to turn the other cheek and walk away, vs using deadly force. You now have the ability to take life and change yours and your families for ever. Therefore I would strongly encourage you to take a class on conflict avoidance or at least read " In the gravest extreme" by massed ayoob. I'm not saying you should never ever use your gun in self defense, what am saying is you need to change your mindset.

    Just because a law says you can/can't doesn't mean you should or shouldn't. Your safety is primary and no matter where you are Florida or California you are accountable for your actions. If you fear grave bodily harm or death take appropriate action, otherwise before your ever in the situation of " I have gun" walk away.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  14. #28
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    One last thought a carpenter that only has a hammer can only pound nails... A CCW holder with a gun may only use deadly force even the mention or presence of a gun maybe viewed as deadly force in many jurisdictions. Not ever problem is a nail. Somebody punching you may call on the need for a good face full of OC, or somebody approaching you in a weird unusual manner should recieve the high intensity of a good flashlight to the face. There are many things you can do to control a situation when you think your actions maybe questioned. Just remembers hen somebody comes at you for what ever reason not every problem is a nail that needs to be pounded.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Good comments so far. Lots of good opinions, food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKahr View Post
    i mean it just might be a GREAT idea to say u have a gun to diffuse a situation instead of having to brandish it and take it out of concealment...
    No, bad idea.

    C.Y.A. Can You Articulate. The statutes related to self-defense and use-of-force are nearly always written in the "reasonable man" perspective, stating that one may take reasonable actions in a situation where a reasonable person would believe such actions to be necessary. Translation: others will judge your actions.

    In anything you do in a self-defense situation, you need to be able to clearly articulate a credible threat, and to articulate the justifiability of what you did. Knowing where that dividing line is can be hard. But it's someone else's life you're capable of taking. You'd better be damned certain that your actions are necessary to protect innocent life (your own or others), even if "only" threatening its use.

    Imagine being on a jury, in which the defendant is being charged with menacing or similar, the type of thing you're concerned with in this thread. Imagine the defendant claimed he felt assailed but not yet actually attacked, and yet he threatened the potential use of a firearm to stop being assailed. What was the infraction by the alleged assailant? What was the threat? Did it justify the use of deadly force, or even the threat of its use? Ask yourself this: if the defendant didn't feel that deadly force was actually needed, then what in the world is he doing threatening the use of deadly force? Think about it.

    Some possible reactions to alleged threatening behavior by an assailant:
    • Simply leaving, saying/doing nothing else.
    • Verbally resisting, ie saying "no."
    • Verbally stating you'd use force to stop being assailed. <-- what you're suggesting
    • Physically showing you'd use force to stop being assailed (ie, removing hands from you).
    • Physically using less-than-lethal force to stop being assailed.
    • Verbally threatening the use of deadly force.
    • Physically threatening the use of deadly force (ie, grabbing your weapon).
    • Presenting your weapon.
    • Using your weapon.


    While there's certainly no clear-cut continuum of force specified in the statutes, you get the idea. As the threat becomes clearer, the severity of response actions becomes easier to justify. How far is too far? How reasonable is "reasonable"? It's whatever the DA/jury judge that to be. You'll need to decide what you're comfortable with, how far you're prepared to go at each level of a threatening situation. Think it through. Welcome to citizenry.

    That said, in the end we each need to decide on the instant where that dividing line is, at which point we'd each be willing to step up and cease an attack against us. For my part, I'm unwilling to take a life unless mine is actually credibly threatened, but that's just me. Where, exactly, I would take steps to handle or present my weapon(s) would depend heavily on the specific circumstances.

    Read Ayoob's In The Gravest Extreme. Re-read.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; July 18th, 2012 at 06:19 AM. Reason: spelling
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by txron View Post
    Concealed means concealed. Verbally and visually
    not only that, but you may very well be facing charges of terroristic threatening if you announce that you have a gun.

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