Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?
This is a discussion on Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It has become that because so many in LE feel they are the law and if they don't agree they have a right to push ...
July 20th, 2012 06:13 AM
It has become that because so many in LE feel they are the law and if they don't agree they have a right to push their political agenda.
LEO has no interest in working with anyone that does not follow their way of thinking to the letter regardless of the law.
Look at FT Hood. They never he was trouble but being PC FBI ignored the warnings .
We need to get away from the old idea of LEO being a protector. Listen to their own words they make it clear they are not. Their propose is to promote and enforce their agenda regardless of the law. Madison WI last 2 years prefect example.
Police officer of today is not the office I grew up with.
You dare not stop an illegal and ask them for ID Holder will have to by the tail in a hart beat.
July 20th, 2012 06:14 AM
What happened yesterday is in the past. Do we decide to continue to live by those standards or do we decide that we can improve and make tomorrow a better day?
Originally Posted by glocknug
"Us"....who is "us"? Who is out to get anyone? That seems to be a predisposition of some sort. The failure of law enforcement in the past to protect citizens is enough cause for a rift. Citizens depending upon LE is another mistake. If you are LE, then I figure you have the ability to discern what's going down at any given time. With what you've said here on the forum this morning.....I think you're a rogue cop and that makes me nervous. The same folks that are actually out to get you are the same folks I despise in my community. I sincerely recommend you get an evaluation in house to help solve your problems before you come here and insist on how things should be in the real world. Take it or leave it. I seldom give good advice to those whom don't need it. Those that do can contact me 24/7 if need be. All night long I've been trying to get a message across to you. Apparently you're too caught up in your own ordeal to listen to reason. The more you go on about this, the more distance you make between us and you. I might have become an MP back in the day.........thing is, I hated humanity enough to become insensitive and take down any target that presented itself in the cross hairs. The military told me where I could best serve through extensive testing. You want to portray a war here on the home turf? Show me a white flag and we'll sit down and talk over a good meal. Taking prisoners was never acceptable for me.
I admit... I started this thread based on a couple of YouTube Videos I saw. It was almost as if they were out to get us... and then I continued reading threads on this website and saw one labled something like "Its OK to shoot the Police if they enter your house unlawfully".
July 20th, 2012 06:49 AM
I think the OP is calling for some sort of middle ground thinking when we have encounters. I agree to an extent. Please understand that every LEO that we encounter is not like you. I had a good encounter while armed just hours ago. We talked about the neighborhood and local happenings. I volunteered the info I was carrying. I found out a lot of info from a new LEO in my area. I would much rather be friends with my local LE than not. I will show them the courtesy they deserve until they over step their authority.
July 20th, 2012 07:36 AM
Firstly (and unfortunately ) here in TN we are required to show our HCP on demand of a LEO as the carrying of a firearm is illegal in TN and an HCP is a defense to it.
I am not someone that wants to buck up with LEO’s or John Q. Public for that matter. However I will stand my ground, know the laws, and my rights.
My last LEO encounter although not a MWAG call initiated at our Local Lowes, me and my Daughter went in for a few specific items, on the way in we passed the officer, I made eye contact smiled and nodded. We proceeded on and gathered our items and headed up to the self-checkout, rang up our items up paid and were just heading to the door when I hear “Sir” from behind me, not loud or commanding, in a tone that I was expecting to hear you forgot something or dropped this.
I turned around to address the voice and the LEO approached close enough that he would not draw attention and said “your side arm is exposed”.
Now I am aware I may handle this different than many, each situation has its own set of circumstances and I will react accordingly.
Due to his demeanor and his statement I was immediately aware that he did not know the law. Upon this initial contact is when I believe our actions become directly related to the outcome of the situation.
I glanced down saw that my shirt was hung above my holster it was not really meant to cover my side arm as even when down it only covered about ˝ of the holster. I flipped the shirt over it and looked back at him with a very puzzled look but allowed the words “Thank You” to come out of my lips.
He proceeded to inform me that here in TN it must be concealed. I let the puzzled expression grow as I replied.
“Sir that is not my understanding of the law”
LEO “we have a concealed carry permit here”
ME “Sir the permit issued to me by the State of TN is a handgun carry permit not a concealed carry permit”
LEO (now with a puzzled look on his face) “Do you have it with you”
Me “Yes sir I have to have it when I carry, would you like to see it” (let the flaming start)
We both inspect the permit and the conversation revolves around each of our understanding of the law.
Now I could have begun to spout AG opinion 05-154 specifically covers…… but I did not go there I simply stated that I believe the AG even has an opinion on this.
He made the remark that he was going to have to look into that and wanted to know if I would like him to follow up with me about it. My response “yes please because if I have misinterpreted something I need to know”. I gave him my cell # and we were on our separate ways.
Approximately an hour latter my phone rang he addressed who he was and that he had done some looking into it and had learned something new today, that it was a carry permit and one could carry openly or concealed, he also thanked me for my for my demeanor during the encounter and I did the same. I then let him know that I was aware of AG opinion 05-154 and he made the remark that I could have told him and he would have believed me. This is when I eluded to the fact that a few of my encounters have not been as friendly, and that now he knows this to be factual he does not just have a piece of hearsay from some citizen off the street. That got a chuckle out of him.
Every encounter has a life of its own, if an Officer approached me with “we have had a call…..”
I would be glad to have a pleasant encounter, I may learn something, and they may learn something. If I am approached with attitude or unreasonable demands I will not be so passive in standing my ground.
Remember we have no control over people, places, or situations. We only have control over how we react and that can greatly affect the outcome.
Last edited by pfries; July 20th, 2012 at 10:07 AM.
Mors est libertas
July 20th, 2012 07:49 AM
I have great respect for what LEOs do, but my one and only LEO encounter while OCing involved me being sworn at and pressured to cover my firearm. I posted a thread on it here. I tried to be respectful, and it got me nowhere.
So now, my response will likely be, "Am I being detained?"
It is the "once bitten, twice shy" story....
Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine
July 20th, 2012 09:43 AM
I consider myself to be a friendly person. I will stop and help people if they need it. I think I am pleasant to be around and am a good friend to those I know and friendly to those I dont. If I meet a police officer on the streets, i have no problem with a friendly conversation. Unfortunately, when a police officer approaches me as a subject of inquiry, you are looking for any infraction or reason to place me under arrest for something. let's face it, you are not there to hold a friendly conversation with me. Even though I know I am breaking no law, I know you are not there to be my friend. You are there investigating me. I dont think there is a way around the adversarial aspect until your superiors understand that you shouldnt be dispatched unless a law is being broken. I understand you have to go because you are told to but that doesnt make the situation any better and really makes it worse since you are stopping people for not breaking the law.
Originally Posted by glocknug
I was a police officer in another life so I understand where you are at.
The 1911 is an antiquated weapons system but then again, so am I.
Retired SF(SP) CMSgt 1979-2005
July 20th, 2012 09:47 AM
I think for every 1 incident with LEO's and someone open carrying, there are 100's if not 1000's that go without incident... yet people like to dwell and base their decisions on the exception, not the norm.
This, of course, varies depending on where you live.
July 20th, 2012 10:04 AM
I have only respect for LEO and what they do for the community. I'm just going to tell it how it is.
LEO's job is to enforce laws.
Civilians must abide by the laws.
LEO's have no duty to be friendly and courteous when enforcing the law.
Civilians have no obligation to go out of their way to be friendly and courteous when being investigated/detained for a possible crime.
If a civilian is caught breaking the law, even if they don't know they are breaking it, they do not roll, do not pass go, do not collect $200. They go straight to jail. There is no second chances. There is no lecture about why they did something wrong and are sent on their way.
So when a civilian is not breaking any laws, but an officer treats them as if they are suspected of breaking a law, why should you expect them to sit back and pleasantly accept what is going on? They aren't going to be happy. They are gong to want to know why they are being detained and suspect. They expect the LEO to know the law, since it is their job to enforce it.
July 20th, 2012 10:20 AM
Everyone must abide by the laws..........including LE.
July 20th, 2012 10:52 AM
I believe in common decency and politeness, so I will go out of my way to be friendly to others even when I'm in an uncomfortable situation, until I see a reason not to any longer. I don't regard a common stop by a LEO as a valid reason to start acting like I have a pine cone stuck in my posterior, and I feel sorry for those who have no problem acting discourteously due to the inconvenience of an investigative encounter.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9
“The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand
July 20th, 2012 11:11 AM
I commend you for your understanding of Terry v Ohio.
Originally Posted by glocknug
I would hazard that an Individual such as myself upon being approached by a Uniformed Officer and asked to produce Identification would know that you were operating in an Investigatory rather a friendly interaction. As such you're not Officer friendly you are the Government and you're not talking to me because you admire my BBQ rig.
But it seems as though some people try to make that 911 call that I a responding to an issue. Why cant we just have a simple conversation? You are not detained, but instead of it being a Police vs. OC situation... why not consent to a short conversation and make sure everything is fine? That way when the next 911 call comes in, if it does, we can simply tell our dispatchers that we already had a conversation with that individual and they are not a threat?
No it's not disrespectful, nor friendly despite the tone in which it is asked. What it is is Official and Authoritative.
As far as the ID thing goes... I admit, I ask for ID on EVERY call I go to, whether its this or somthing else. It is not disrespectful.
Again we agree, however there are numerous incidents of LEO wrongfully pressing the issue instead of showing your level of Professionalism and knowing when to walk away.
If you dont want to show it, ok... this shouldnt be a huge issue.
Only because you're acting in an Official Investigatory capacity, where you have no reason to believe a crime has been, is about to be, or is being committed.
We are just trying to figure out who we are talking to.
Your choice and certainly your right.
I have been stopped by the Police in neighboring jurisdictions while out with a pistol. They ask for my ID and I provide it. I explain to them why I had my gun, and they understand!
You voluntarily sought out and competed with others to obtain your position as a LEO knowing the risks associated with the Profession. If approaching an Individual lawfully armed (which you profess to agree with) who's not suspected of criminal activity is so scary and so dangerous why are you doing it? How does asking for ID make you safer? While you may have a departmental policy obligating you to respond to calls you have no obligation nor authority to Investigate lawful activity.
Keep in mind...
The majority of the time, we are NOT coming into contact with citizens following the law. Just like everybody on here who carries, We want to go home to our family at the end of our shift! I hate the us vs. them thing, and I hate that the uniform sometimes puts a target on your back. You have to understand why we are careful! People who carry are doing so to defend themselves against the BG, we are trying to help with that. Why not assist us with this?
Really? Do you approach other Uniformed LEO that you do not personally know and ask them to produce Identification?
A lot of OCers on here have probably had encounters with the Police as I have described. It doesnt have to be a negative thing! We are on the SAME TEAM!
I commend you for your efforts to better comprehend the complexity of such encounters and wish you a long and safe career.
"There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)
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July 20th, 2012 11:44 AM
Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?
Why are there so many OCers that seem like they are just out to give the Police a hard time?
Everyone has seen their share of video evidence of police harassment in Open Carry encounters. I mean bogus lecturing, insults, illegal searches, even guns drawn out, “to show who’s boss”. Frankly I tend to remember those and assume that the next cop I run into is going to be like that. Also, if the cops involved don’t want to follow up on those dispatched calls, then the cops making decisions about those calls ought to not have them go out under the circumstances, knowing it’s just a guy or two packing guns and not being involved with any real crime. Obviously the higher ups making policy and writing memos, don’t mind giving the citizen unnecessary heat. Furthermore, if you are dispatched and you can’t get out of it, then why isn’t it just a matter of going there and saying “hello, goodbye” to the citizen, and leaving it at that? Why does it have to involve any degree of detention or questioning, which is clearly illegal with no evidence of a crime and no probable cause? It seems to me that loads of these guys love giving these citizens a hard time. It’s a pretty easy stop knowing the guy is just a good citizen who has no reason to fight or resist.
July 20th, 2012 12:06 PM
Generalizations and stereotypes are not really useful here, because we're talking about possible discrete interactions between two or more humans in an attempt to communicate, so recognize when you OC or CC, and meet a LEO, that you are both human, complete with foibles, frailties, desires, families, and a need to openly and honestly understand both sides of the interaction without resorting to stereotypes and generalizations in your response. It goes both ways, and a bit of mutual respect and understanding would go a long ways.
Particularly after the Colorado incident this morning, there will be a lot of nerves jangled and raw, so understand the sensitivity of the LEO if you are in that position. This is not the time to climb up on your war-horse and start making speeches, regardless of whether you believe making a LEO more comfortable is the right thing to do as an adult. This, my friends, is just a fact, unpleasant as it is, as tragic as it is, but we're all adults and we, to some extent, are products of our environment regardless of our intellectual and emotional grasp of the immediate situation.
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"He went on two legs, wore clothes and was a human being, but nevertheless he was in reality a wolf of the Steppes. He had learned a good deal . . . and was a fairly clever fellow. What he had not learned, however, was this: to find contentment in himself and his own life. The cause of this apparently was that at the bottom of his heart he knew all the time (or thought he knew) that he was in reality not a man, but a wolf of the Steppes."
July 20th, 2012 12:19 PM
Really quite well put. Agree. They are there to make a case against you and toss you in the clink. Not to be friends. If you are the average armed citizen, they are certainly in the wrong.--D.J.
Originally Posted by Chief1297
Last edited by Rock and Glock; July 20th, 2012 at 02:35 PM.
July 20th, 2012 12:22 PM
So go ahead and take your shot st me for my opinion!!!
But: If that guy walking into the Colorado theater was stopped for open carry he probably would have the right to complain about it. I have no problem with any police officer "just checking" on a person known to have a gun. As long as it's professional and reasonable. There will always be antes reporting in when they see a gun. Like it or not the police officer serves them too and is just doing his/her job. carry concealed to protect yourself, open carry to make a point. I'll opt for the first.
I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.
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