Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?

This is a discussion on Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Echo_Four Guys, I don't know what you expect the police to do. It isn't up to them. If somebody calls them to ...

Page 6 of 17 FirstFirst ... 234567891016 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 249
Like Tree392Likes

Thread: Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?

  1. #76
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,012
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    Guys, I don't know what you expect the police to do. It isn't up to them. If somebody calls them to complain about "a man with a gun" they are going to come talk to you.
    The expectations are clearly outlined in many of the prior posts.

    Mere complaints don't equate to justified calls. Justified calls equate to justified calls. And lacking ANY corroborating factors of behavior, demeanor or appearance confirming a material threat (instead of merely someone's personal problem with weaponry), then there's little cause to stop, detain or demand vetting of a person for going about one's lawful business. It's that simple.

    There's no hostility. There's simply a problem with awful procedure that presumes guilt ahead of innocence when engaged in a lawful act.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #77
    Moderator
    Array Rock and Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado at 11,650'
    Posts
    12,222
    For what it is worth, the Denver / Aurora matter is going to make MWAG calls increase, is going to make the LEO's a bit more apprehensive, and will otherwise sensitize everyone all the way around. Do not take it personally. It is just a fact, pure and simple. Nothing more, nothing less. If you choose to OC, you will have additional contact. Expect nothing less, and be prepared for it.

    Remember, your choice to OC is your decision, you own it.
    kb2wji, wmhawth, pfries and 1 others like this.

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    So long as both sides of this issue follow what is required by law there should be no problems. Sound so simple, to bad it isn't.

    Michael
    Last edited by mlr1m; July 21st, 2012 at 01:05 AM. Reason: I mande an oopsie

  5. #79
    VIP Member
    Array Echo_Four's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Land of the mostly free
    Posts
    2,812
    ccw9mm, just because you personally believe that a man with a gun call should be ignored unless the officer finds something upon casual observation doesn't make it true. I wish that were the case, but it isn't the world we live in.

    In 2007 the American Bar Association claimed there were 1,143,358 lawyers in the United States. There's probably a legitimate need for about 750,000 of them. That leaves over a quarter million lawyers to chase cases. The first time they find out that someone called the police to complain about a man with a gun and the police didn't show up and investigate the issue then that man ends up shooting up a kindergarten class every single one of those quarter million lawyers will be visiting the town. That's the truth about the world we live in. Thus, when you decide to strap a Roscoe to your hip and walk around town, speaking with a police officer is a possibility. I'm sorry that it causes you so much trouble. I agree that it shouldn't be the case. However none of that changes the fact that the police officer will have to come if the call is made.
    Rock and Glock likes this.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
    - Lt. Col. Oliver North

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,012
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    Thus, when you decide to strap a Roscoe to your hip and walk around town, speaking with a police officer is a possibility. I'm sorry that it causes you so much trouble. I agree that it shouldn't be the case. However none of that changes the fact that the police officer will have to come if the call is made.
    Doesn't trouble me a bit. And I'm glad that you at least see it need not be the case. That's something, a good first step.

    Responding to calls for threat, danger and people in distress is fine, understandable and to be expected, the whole point of the job that police first-responders are hired to do. But none are automatons. None arrive at a scene or situation blind, without intelligence, without the ability to gather potential supporting information with their eyes, ears and common sense. And with further investigation, if warranted by the totality of circumstances. And that's the point, or rather pointlessness, of situations that clearly show themselves to have no merit as to claims of threat or danger.

    We're speaking of lawful, normal, everyday activities, here, about citizens simply going about their lives, doing nothing threatening. That goes for someone running a chainsaw in a yard, driving down a street in a 3500 lb pound car, or carrying a knife, firearm, baseball bat, or tree branch. Any of these might potentially be wielded as a tool by a criminal, sure. But during the normal, everyday course of using such tool, none is. And lacking that, it's simply clear that fearful calls without merit need not be pursued beyond simple gathering of supporting information that clearly shows no threat or danger exists at the time.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; July 21st, 2012 at 09:28 AM.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #81
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,245
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    The hostility is showing plainly in this thread. Guys, I don't know what you expect the police to do. It isn't up to them. If somebody calls them to complain about "a man with a gun" they are going to come talk to you. If they didn't they'd lose their job and be replaced by someone who would. The guy wearing the blue suit and driving the black and white car isn't a decision maker when it comes to that kind of thing.

    I don't know what the "activists" would have the police officer do. It appears that he's in a no-win situation at this point. By doing what is required of him, he will be made out to be evil. There has to be some give and take in any situation, and that's true here. If you choose to carry a weapon openly there's a good chance the police are going to be forced to come talk with you. Once they learn that you're not about to do something crazy they'll leave you alone. Some may not like that you are armed, some may want to spend 10 minutes talking about holster choice or the new 1911 you're sporting. In either case I just don't see the value in attempting to make things worse for everyone involved.
    I would request that the LEO follow the law. Nothing more nothing less. If LEO walks up to me a wish to talk fine. But if I am not being accused or a crime or being arrested do not try o enforce his personal agenda. He would not try it on any protect class person why me.
    Once you produce that ID you are on record no madder what they tell you. I will not go into the long story about the prostitution stops they were making in Milwaukee but many people just driving to work in the morning names showed up on a list of men stopped maybe looking for hookers that list made it to the public now most for them were just driving into where they worked a road with a 25 mph speed limit.
    How does a man explain to his wife he was stopped 3 times in front of where he works. These were random stops they took ID and recorded the stop. It did not madder that the person did nothing wrong his name was still on the list.
    You assume that the LEO is engaging in a harmless act of public service, It would be great if that were the case. It is however not he is push an agenda and using his badge to to do it.
    I would ask the you research and read the statements made by many LEO and their leaders on the subject. Thier words not mine their actions not mine.

  8. #82
    sgb
    sgb is offline
    VIP Member Array sgb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    You don't need to know
    Posts
    2,414
    Circa 1960's thinking .......

    Guys, I don't know what you expect the police to do. It isn't up to them. If somebody calls them to complain about "a Black man" they are going to come talk to you. If they didn't they'd lose their job and be replaced by someone who would. The guy wearing the blue suit and driving the black and white car isn't a decision maker when it comes to that kind of thing.

    Making excuses for Improper LE conduct is in my opinion part of the problem. I believe it's called enabling.
    Brad426 likes this.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,689
    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Circa 1960's thinking .......




    Making excuses for Improper LE conduct is in my opinion part of the problem. I believe it's called enabling.
    Well done. And I get that it isn't up to the officer... they go where they are dispatched to go... but the head law enforcement person in a jurisdiction has the ability to train his/her people (including the people taking the call) on how to handle it. I have a feeling a lot of the places where OC folks get "hassled" it's because of an unwritten policy from the top of the food chain... "Talk to and ID every person with a gun on their hip and eventually they'll get the message that their kind isn't welcome in these parts."
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
    Clint Eastwood

  10. #84
    VIP Member
    Array oneshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    +42.893612,-082.710236 , Mi.
    Posts
    7,910
    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^So why can't^^^^^^^

    the officer drive by, observe what the oc'er s doing and leave as long as he isn't pulling the firearm out, brandishing it, shooting it where there isn't a firing range?
    Is he picnicing , just hiking along, shopping in a store minding his own business, or what.
    Common sense goes along way.

    Your response is the same bull that we hear all the time,
    but its been proven in Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)....... Warren v. District of Columbia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    From article;

    The court noted that because the police are only under a general duty to provide services to the public at large, a special relationship must exist between the police and the individual in question for the "duty" element of negligence to be satisfied. It held that no such special relationship existed so the case was properly dismissed by the trial court for failure to state a claim and the case never went to trial.[3


    It is the modern day policing belief that wishes to demonize firearms and those who have them.
    This is what gets instilled into the publics mindset and that is where all this malarkey comes from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    The hostility is showing plainly in this thread. Guys, I don't know what you expect the police to do. It isn't up to them. If somebody calls them to complain about "a man with a gun" they are going to come talk to you. If they didn't they'd lose their job and be replaced by someone who would. The guy wearing the blue suit and driving the black and white car isn't a decision maker when it comes to that kind of thing.

    I don't know what the "activists" would have the police officer do. It appears that he's in a no-win situation at this point. By doing what is required of him, he will be made out to be evil. There has to be some give and take in any situation, and that's true here. If you choose to carry a weapon openly there's a good chance the police are going to be forced to come talk with you. Once they learn that you're not about to do something crazy they'll leave you alone. Some may not like that you are armed, some may want to spend 10 minutes talking about holster choice or the new 1911 you're sporting. In either case I just don't see the value in attempting to make things worse for everyone involved.



    Read my post, which clearly states the police, in any jurisdiction in the US of A, have no obligation to protect anyone and you will plainly see that this is a matter of "social modification" on the part of policing in general to paint anything and everything that has to do with the average citizen and firearms as evil.


    Would they go on a call , any other call about someone doing something LEGAL just because the caller didn't like what the other person was doing?


    Why is it when you guys see something that flies like a duck, walks like a duck, and swims like a duck, you still call it something other than a DUCK?
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  11. #85
    Member Array pfries's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    East TN
    Posts
    390
    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Circa 1960's thinking .......


    Guys, I don't know what you expect the police to do. It isn't up to them. If somebody calls them to complain about "a Black man" they are going to come talk to you. If they didn't they'd lose their job and be replaced by someone who would. The guy wearing the blue suit and driving the black and white car isn't a decision maker when it comes to that kind of thing.


    Making excuses for Improper LE conduct is in my opinion part of the problem. I believe it's called enabling.
    You are comparing OC’ers/carriers to a protected class, reality is we are not. Should we be IMO yes as we are only exercising a right.

    If you want that to change become active in the movements within your state to effect change.

    Going out in the proper manner can increase public awareness, looking for confrontation is akin to a sibling antagonizing their brother/sister and trying to get them in trouble with mom.

    We have proper channels available to us for implementing change, as with other issues the road is long and arduous. Many times it has taken a sacrifice that some are not willing to give, time and effort are in short supply nowadays.

    The more people that support our position the better off we are this includes LE.

    So we have many problems on many fronts to address, if my ship is sinking and my sail is torn I am not going to spend my time fixing the sail first. Trying to assert our rights that the federal government has allowed many of the states to step on is in my eyes like fixing the sail.

    I will choose to address every situation for what it is; I will try to leave all parties with as pleasant a taste in their mouth as I can. I will attempt to garner allies for my cause as I know I already have plenty of enemies. I will not spend my time trying to change any hard headed civilian or LEO’s mind, nor will I give them ammunition against me if it can be avoided. Daily I walk amongst those who would be happy to finish stripping me of all of my rights; I am not blind to this. I will strategically choose my battles not rush out to take on a battalion single handedly. I will not expend any more energy on an encounter that will have little to no bearing on my overall goal than I have to.
    Rock and Glock likes this.
    Mors est libertas


    MALAD JUSTED

  12. #86
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,689
    "You are comparing OC’ers/carriers to a protected class, reality is we are not. Should we be IMO yes as we are only exercising a right."

    Black people weren't a protected class until 1964. His point is just because something IS doesn't mean it's something that SHOULD BE.
    sgb likes this.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
    Clint Eastwood

  13. #87
    Member Array pfries's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    East TN
    Posts
    390
    Quote Originally Posted by Brad426 View Post
    "You are comparing OC’ers/carriers to a protected class, reality is we are not. Should we be IMO yes as we are only exercising a right."

    Black people weren't a protected class until 1964. His point is just because something IS doesn't mean it's something that SHOULD BE.
    Should we be IMO yes as we are only exercising a right


    Please read the rest of the post as I believe it covers this


    Mors est libertas


    MALAD JUSTED

  14. #88
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,689
    Not so much.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
    Clint Eastwood

  15. #89
    Moderator
    Array Rock and Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado at 11,650'
    Posts
    12,222

    Lightbulb Image

    We all agree that we support the 2A. We all agree that we have the Right to carry. We begin to disagree when considering the proverbial MWAG call and related initial responses, if any, from LEO's. So, having said that, consider how, and why personal actions and interactions can sometimes positively or adversely affect those initial contacts. I am not being judgmental, I am just pointing out a fact of human nature, nothing more, nothing less.

    We all had some fun laughing about the doofus that went to the 7-11 wearing a Star Wars T-Shirt, sloppy sweat pants and a Smart Carry outside the sweats, his Glock flopping around like a mackerel on shore. It was kind of fun in a sad way. A portion of the thread was dedicated to a hypothetical "contact" with him. I would anticipate we all had formed an opinion of this poor fella just from TN_Mike's description.

    So, not to compare anyone to Mr. Star Wars, why would any of us consider that our appearance, our demeanor with an initial contact, does not carry great import?

    I am not advocating here, I am merely pointing out that our responses to our environment have a HUGE impact on how we are perceived and treated and that is just human nature. It is a fact, we will not change that fact. We might ultimately change how a MWAG is perceived, but we will never change how that initial impression is made.



    In the Concise Oxford Dictionary, image is described as "the character or reputation of a person or thing as generally perceived". A first impression based on non-verbal communication goes a long way in influencing this perception. Within seconds of meeting you, based on a single observed physical trait or behavior, people will assume to know everything about you (as is explained in the 2003 book Social Psychology by H. Andrew Michener, John D. Delamater, and Daniel J. Myers). Furthermore, according to research by Dr. Albert Mehrabian of UCLA, appearance and body language (visual image) accounts for fifty-five percent of an invaluable first impression.
    Since light travels faster than sound, you are seen before you are heard. This is why, before even uttering a word your visual image will say a multitude about you as an individual (your perceived level of intelligence, competence, affability, self-esteem, confidence, power, beliefs and success) and about the organization you represent (its philosophy, culture, and standard of service).
    A recent study, conducted by an employment law firm, Peninsula, asked businesses in the United Kingdom what interview habit they found most annoying and found that over a quarter were upset by unsuitable clothing or appearance.
    "I have raised four teenagers and every one of them has, at some point, gotten a piercing or tattoo and has said that 'if I am are going to work for XYZ Company they need to accept me for who I am.' My children need to understand that at some point they might have to modify their appearance to fit into a professional environment.
    How to Make a Great First Impression

    So, my rambling addition to this thread would just be to counsel that you only have one chance to make that first impression, so use it wisely, in look, manner, and carriage.
    pfries likes this.

  16. #90
    Member Array drbald1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    347
    Something else to consider (or re-consider!) is that we're talking about an encounter with the possibility of extreme outcomes.

    We who carry know that we're carrying weapons, and very effective ones at that.

    We also all seem to agree there are LEO's who are legitimately trying to do a good job, serve the public, and go home to their families. There are also some LEO's who simply shouldn't be given that kind of power and responsibility.

    For the good ones, what may on the surface be a simple "Look, I have to respond to a call. Is everything ok? Yes? Fine. Have a nice day!" conversation could turn deadly fast. And not just for the LEO. I doubt any of them want to be the officer that talked to someone who, minutes later, fired on innocents.

    Sometimes the chance of extreme outcomes increases the intensity of the simply conversation.
    Rock and Glock and pfries like this.

Page 6 of 17 FirstFirst ... 234567891016 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

carrying open in mi youtube

,
colorado please harassment open carry videos youtube
,
does a police officer have the right to ask for identification for open carry?
,
oc meaning by police
,
oc meaning in police
,

oc meaning police

,

open carry police harassment

,

taking test for open carry permit in oklahoma after nov. 1

,

what does oc mean police

,
what does oc mean to police
,
what does oc mean witg guns
,

what is mean of oc of police

Click on a term to search for related topics.