Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police? - Page 7

Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?

This is a discussion on Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Echo_Four Thus, when you decide to strap a Roscoe to your hip and walk around town, speaking with a police officer is ...

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Thread: Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?

  1. #91
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Echo_Four
    Thus, when you decide to strap a Roscoe to your hip and walk around town, speaking with a police officer is a possibility. I'm sorry that it causes you so much trouble. I agree that it shouldn't be the case. However none of that changes the fact that the police officer will have to come if the call is made.
    The problem isn't the police officer investigating in response to a call. The problem isn't the officer asking for an ID or other identification.
    The problem comes when a person who acting within the law exercises his rights not to answer and the officer refuses to accept that they do not have to comply.

    I see no problem if I ask to see your ID. I'm free to ask a question. If on the other hand you are not required by law to show an ID and decide to exercise you right not to comply. The encounter is over, nothing more to do or discuss. Anything more beyond that point becomes illegal demands.

    Michael


  2. #92
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Another case now keep in mind LS online is very anti-weapon in any case so how they word is slanted some.
    How you arrange words change make thing look different than they are.
    Jury rules in favor of gun-rights activist - JSOnline

  3. #93
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    ^ cool.
    "Milwaukee police officer Cassandra Benitez testified that when she first looked into Sutterfield's car from the passenger side with a flashlight, she did not notice the 9mm Glock on Sutterfield's hip, despite being extra alert to a possible weapon after seeing a National Rifle Association cap on the back seat.
    Benitez testified that her training told her that the presence of NRA gear makes it more likely the person might have a gun.
    When she re-approached Sutterfield's car ... she saw the gun, now exposed in front of Sutterfield's jacket, within a... couple seconds."

    What I get from this is the cop admitted to not being very observant and she needed training to point out common sense matters. I wonder how much she'll make off the city this time around.

  4. #94
    Ex Member Array 1911247's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glocknug View Post
    First off, I want to say that I do not usually open carry, although I am usually armed. I have absolutely NO problem with Open Carry in general, but I am very curious about this. I am also a Police Officer.

    Why are there so many OCers that seem like they are just out to give the Police a hard time? I can tell you that nobody I work with is out there trying to "harass" people legally carrying a firearm. In fact, most are all for it. I can also tell you that we HATE being dispatched to calls regarding things that are not illegal, such as a guy openly carrying a holstered firearm, but we still HAVE to go!

    Instead of making YouTube Videos and giving the Police a hard time, why can't we work together? The majority of the time I have positive conversations with people who OC, but there are always some who just want to give you a hard time for no reason. I also try to call the complaintants back and I explain to them that nothing illegal or dangerous is occuring.

    Don't you think this hurts the rest of us in the long run, in the public eye? I think this is definatly the case when you have people OCing an AK-47, for no reason, just so they get approached by a Police Officer (Almost ALWAYS resonding to citizen complaints!), just to get a YouTube video up.

    It doesn't have to be OC Vs. Police...Why cant we just work together?
    Simple. because most police officers seem as if they are out to give OC'ers a hard time. Every time a cop sees an OCer........they stop them, question them, violate their 4th rights.......disarm them. While all the OC'er is doing is walking to buy a soda.......

    Therefore they have taken the defensive, armed themselves with not only guns, but recorders and cameras. As you know not all cops are good cops, some do harass OC'ers, some arrest them on false charges because they dont like the idea. Some make life hell for them. The OC'ers are just trying to protect themselves, much as you guys want to protect yourselves.

    I think everyone should just play nicely and lose the drama involved with OC and it would work out just fine.

  5. #95
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    t doesn't have to be OC Vs. Police...Why cant we just work together?
    That would be the easy way out. But what do we do about those who have broken no laws and want no contact with police? Other than telling them that they have to give up what they are doing that is.

    Michael

  6. #96
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    If the cop is polite, then the civilian will most likely respond politely. If the cop is ignorant, then there is a problem. I am pretty certain no cop is enthused about a man-with-a-gun call.

    In Fl the push for open carry is basically so if your gun 'shows' than you don't get arrested. I personally carry a copy of Fl statutes because I never found most police are not current on gun statutes. I deal with a stalker and local police have zero advice or know the statutes (plus they don't want to be bothered). Confronting cops with the 'Open carry' is a dumb proposition unless it is a organized march, and there is some police communication.
    Last edited by theskunk; July 26th, 2012 at 02:23 AM.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by theskunk View Post
    If the cop is polite than the civilian will most likely respond politely. If the cop is ignorant than there is a problem. I am pretty certain no cop is enthused about a man-with-a-gun call.

    In Fl the push for open carry is basically so if your gun 'shows' than you don't get arrested. I personally carry a copy of Fl statutes because I never found most police current on gun statutes. I deal with a stalker and local police have zero advice or know the statutes (plus they don't want to be bothered). Confronting cops with the 'Open carry' is a dumb proposition unless it is a organized march, and there is some police communication.
    +10. I used to OC a lot in my local town. But i also know 95% of the LEO's here and i never had a single problem. However when i went to the town next to mine .WOAHHHH was there a difference. 7 Stops in one day, in the course of 2 hours. Threats towards my life "if we see you we'll shoot you". Was lied to about criminal statute many times, harassed, belittled , insulted and basically treated like a felon. Eventually when i was stopped i wouldnt give them so much as my name, just ask if i was being detained, and if not if i was free to go. Every time they disarmed me i filed a formal complaint. Eventually the officers received training after stopping the head of MOCA *maine open carry association* and harassing him on camera...........

    Some cops are great with OC. Others are just thugs with a badge. Sadly i see the bad guy in most cases is the officer, overstepping his legal boundries and harassing law abiding folk. OC'ers are not combative, they are reactive to the situation that the LEO puts them in the first place. Leave em alone.........you wont get any interference from them

  8. #98
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    Eventually the officers received training after stopping the head of MOCA *maine open carry association* and harassing him on camera
    The key word is camera. The plain truth is you need to have a camera ready, and if you are going to 'Open Carry', then film the interaction. A citizen carrying a gun is no real threat (the criminal doesn't open carry in a holster), but it is a psychological challenge to the cop. Then you add in a citizen that knows the law, and will not give into the intimidation, and soon you have an escalating situation.

    I myself bought a Kodak mini HD ....$50 Office Depot .... smaller than a cell phone. If you plan to Open Carry, expect confrontations.

  9. #99
    Ex Member Array 1911247's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theskunk View Post
    The key word is camera. The plain truth is you need to have a camera ready, and if you are going to 'Open Carry', then film the interaction. A citizen carrying a gun is no real threat (the criminal doesn't open carry in a holster), but it is a psychological challenge to the cop. Then you add in a citizen that knows the law, and will not give into the intimidation, and soon you have an escalating situation.

    I myself bought a Kodak mini HD ....$50 Office Depot .... smaller than a cell phone. If you plan to Open Carry, expect confrontations.
    Exactly. When i used to OC i would carry my cell in my hand. Or a voice recorder. if i was stopped by an LEOv who had the "im the law so shut up" attitude. i would plainly state "am i free to go" if they said no, i would flip whatever was in my hand on, and tell them they were being recorded for my safety and theirs. usually they changed their mind on whether i was free to go or not.

    Also as you stated knowing the law is a huge key, most cops dont know the laws that well, thats why they carry "the book" to look up statutes, if you can out talk them. they usually leave as well.

    However. the main issue is WHY must they stop every single person who is OCing. I mean yeah when OC was started i get it, they were severely un-informed but now in 2012 they all know OC is legal, they all know stopping an OCer is NOT legal........so why keep doing it. And if they INSIST on doing it. Why all the confrontational BS? why not just be like "hey man whats up, nice weather were having, is that a glock? what model".

    Instead of "HEY YOU! LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS!. now im gonna take your gun, ask you illegal stupid questions, argue your rights, call my supervisor then end up looking like a jerk when i have to give your back your gun and let you go without even seeing your ID".

    Thats the real issue. They know the law now, they know its a right to do it.....so why harass the OCer in the first place.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    However. the main issue is WHY must they stop every single person who is OCing.
    That stems from the department heads. Your Open Carry group needs to meet with the police chief and discuss it. The only solution will be a lawyer, organized demostrations with media coverage, and your camera. If you have a group, they should distribute the statutes.

    You won't stop the cops from checking you, but the encounter will be more civilized.

  11. #101
    New Member Array vikingofthor's Avatar
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    The problem in my mind, and the Reason that over time Many Oc'ers get to the point where they resent the police, is because the police do not understand what they do to them. I OC nearly all the time, and have had for a couple years. I get stopped all the time, and have had since I started. It is not uncommon in some municipalities to be stopped 3 and 4 times a day. I would say in the last 12 months I have spent at least 4 -6 hours being stopped, if not more, and I have been late to multiple dinners and other places I was traveling to, because I was stopped.

    In EVERY case, I was not breaking the law, and did nothing wrong. We can continue to say it isn't a big deal to deal with a police officer coming and asking for your ID, but really, it is a big deal. It is a big deal because it does not just happen once, it happens over and over and over. In no other legal activity would people accept being harassed day in and day out. In no other legal activity would people accept being stopped over and over when they are in no way doing anything illegal, or even doing anything that could give anyone the idea they are doing anything illegal.

    When a police department gets a MWAG call, if they want to send a car over and have a look, that is fine. If the officer can find no reason, while looking at the OC'er to talk to them other than the call, then the cop should never initiate contact, and should go back do doing whatever he was doing before the call. When a cop is driving and sees OC happening, he should be able to look at the situation and if he sees nothing else going on, should be able to continue about his day without another thought. OC is LEGAL in MO, and I should not even be approached by any LEO if I am not doing anything Illegal.

    If someone calls in to the police and complains about something that is not illegal, the police do nothing, unless it involves a gun. you call and say your neighbor parks their car wrong, or you don't like fireworks ever though they are legal, or you see a black person walking down the street and you don't think black people should be there, the police will explain to the caller that that activity is not illegal and it ends. They might send a car, and when arriving and seeing nothing illegal taking place, drive away without ever getting out of their car. WHY do they think it is OK when it involves OC? If harassment is a person being bothered over and over, then it would seem to me that EVERY person I know who OCs is harrased by the police on a regular basis.

    How many times can you be stopped and asked questions about something before you are "harrased", how many times can you stand with your hands on your head while your gun is removed before you are "harrased"

    Before anyone asks, I am a clean cut normal looking White guy, who drives a normal looking 4 year old pick up, I am generally wearing jeans, work boots, and a button down shirt, or plain t-shirt, and I do not antagonize or raise my voice, I give them my ID, and ask why I am being stopped. I do my best not to allow it to escalate.

    A person can only be pushed so far, lately I have thought often times that the people that tell off the cops, and videotape things are right, why should we allow these people to step on our rights over and over and over again. I never started out thinking OC vs cop, I never wanted to think that, but the actions and behaviors and attitudes of Law Enforcement have pushed me farther and farther towards that viewpoint over the last few years.

  12. #102
    Member Array DukeoftheD's Avatar
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    One huge issue I don't think anyone has addressed on this thread is that in places where guns must be registered as soon as a cop disarms you all they have to do is run the serial numbers on your pistol and they don't need to see your ID. Another disconnect with police I see is when a cop violates your rights its a big deal to you but even if you file a complaint what happens? A verbal warning if that? Its like until the whole turd hits the fan (someone gets hurt or lawsuit gets files) nothing changes. Moreover a huge problem with police in America is training or lack of training. Some thing officers are trained to do are illegal. Like demanding ID when it doesn't have to be shown and escalating the situation. Escalating the situation could be another whole thread lol. Police rarely deescalate the situation. It seems they escalate the situation until you back down or the cuff you. All this from a situation where no crime was being committed.

  13. #103
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeoftheD View Post
    Another disconnect with police I see is when a cop violates your rights its a big deal to you but even if you file a complaint what happens? A verbal warning if that?
    If you have a complaint about an officer it is taken VERY seriously to say the least. This is something they don't want you to know so they usually play it off with the "go ahead it won't do anything" attitude to discourage you.
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK

  14. #104
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?
    An easy way to prevent this would be to quit stopping citizens unless they have broken a law.

    Michael
    Brad426 and Badey like this.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    An easy way to prevent this would be to quit stopping citizens unless they have broken a law.

    Michael
    You and your simplistic, common sense solutions ...
    Burns likes this.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
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