Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?
This is a discussion on Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; First off, I want to say that I do not usually open carry, although I am usually armed. I have absolutely NO problem with Open ...
July 19th, 2012 11:00 PM
Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?
First off, I want to say that I do not usually open carry, although I am usually armed. I have absolutely NO problem with Open Carry in general, but I am very curious about this. I am also a Police Officer.
Why are there so many OCers that seem like they are just out to give the Police a hard time? I can tell you that nobody I work with is out there trying to "harass" people legally carrying a firearm. In fact, most are all for it. I can also tell you that we HATE being dispatched to calls regarding things that are not illegal, such as a guy openly carrying a holstered firearm, but we still HAVE to go!
Instead of making YouTube Videos and giving the Police a hard time, why can't we work together? The majority of the time I have positive conversations with people who OC, but there are always some who just want to give you a hard time for no reason. I also try to call the complaintants back and I explain to them that nothing illegal or dangerous is occuring.
Don't you think this hurts the rest of us in the long run, in the public eye? I think this is definatly the case when you have people OCing an AK-47, for no reason, just so they get approached by a Police Officer (Almost ALWAYS resonding to citizen complaints!), just to get a YouTube video up.
It doesn't have to be OC Vs. Police...Why cant we just work together?
July 19th, 2012 11:08 PM
I don't OC, but I am on the same page as you here. Your statement "we HATE being dispatched to calls regarding things that are not illegal, such as a guy openly carrying a holstered firearm, but we still HAVE to go!" begs the question... why aren't dispatchers and 911 operators trained to deal with that over the phone rather than sending officers out? It's legal (assuming it IS legal in the place the call comes in from, of course), so why can't the dispatcher explain to the caller that they are reporting a legal activity and avoid the potential confrontation in the first place?
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
July 19th, 2012 11:19 PM
Probably due to Liability. If the dispatcher didnt dispatch an Officer to the guy with a gun call... the one time in a million it would be something serious, somebody would be shot, and then they are liable... Like I said, highly unlikely, but possible... so they send an Officer.
Originally Posted by Brad426
July 19th, 2012 11:35 PM
I live in northern Mn. and I do open carry a lot. I'm sure I'll hear about this ,but I don't have any problem with an officer asking to see my permit. To me it's no different than a officer asking to see my dl .
July 19th, 2012 11:50 PM
While you have to respond to a dispatched call do you over step your authority by detaining the individual conducting a lawful activity and demand ID, or do you arrive, observe and clear the complaint as unfounded?
Originally Posted by glocknug
Do you understand your authority isn't absolute and that your authority is restricted by the Constitution and Court rulings? That if you don't overstep yourself that you're not going to make it to youtube?
Last edited by sgb; July 20th, 2012 at 01:14 AM.
"There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)
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July 19th, 2012 11:53 PM
Sometimes it is not the open carriers giving the hard time. (Note: Sometimes)
Originally Posted by glocknug
"One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
--Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney
Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791
and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."
July 20th, 2012 12:02 AM
Folks, keep it civil in here, and remember this from the Sub-Forum Stickies:
When we originally opened this forum, I added a notation that this was not the place to "debate the virtues of open carry", essentially making it a protected forum. I have, since then, debated whether this was the right thing to do since we did not place any restrictions on other forums.
Open carry is a controversial subject, particularly when those that do OC do so specifically to garner attention to the practice. While we still discourage arguments over this topic, we will no longer offer "protection" for those who's practices invoke controversy. We now all stand on even ground but we will not hesitate to issue infractions for those that cross the line in comments and rebuttals.
If you can accept these changes, we will continue to welcome you to this forum. If not, there is another forum out there that may be more to your liking....
And please remember we view "Cop-Bashing" in a very dim light.
This is, as most of you know, a deviation of our previous policy of discouraging open carry threads. The policy was put in place several years ago when there seemed to be a confrontational tone to many of those threads. Like everything, though, things change in time, including DefensiveCarry.
While our policy has been changed and we now encourage the posting of threads regarding open carry, we will continue enforcing our rules regarding civility within the forum. This forum will not allow the endless debate of "us vs them". We are all gun owners that believe in the right to carry, either openly or concealed and it's time that we start understanding that we are all on the same side. We are all responsible gun owners that follow the law whether we agree with them or not.
In establishing this new forum, I am asking our members to help "self-police" it by using the report feature should you see a thread heating up. If the decision to include open carry in our topics turn into a disaster, this forum will be removed and we will go back to the way things previous to this change.
So....let's keep all of this courteous, civil, and respectful. I for one would like this thread to have a long useful life where we can all learn and further our understanding of this area of the 2A.
And, a big welcome to Glocknug, a new member!
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"He went on two legs, wore clothes and was a human being, but nevertheless he was in reality a wolf of the Steppes. He had learned a good deal . . . and was a fairly clever fellow. What he had not learned, however, was this: to find contentment in himself and his own life. The cause of this apparently was that at the bottom of his heart he knew all the time (or thought he knew) that he was in reality not a man, but a wolf of the Steppes."
July 20th, 2012 12:03 AM
I think there are two issues here. First, you have people that freak out when ever they see someone carrying a gun in public and they call the cops. Two, when the cops show up and find the person with the gun the cops start hassling that person wanting to see id and wanting to know why they have a gun, when its perfectly legal to open carry. This is were it becomes us - the open carrier against them - the cops. Alot of cops just don`t know the laws that there paid to enforce, and this is what causes most of the problems.
This is just my opinion and the way I see it.
I personally conceal carry all the time because its what prefer. But I have no problem with those that open carry.
July 20th, 2012 12:15 AM
It doesn't have to be.
Why does it have to be OC Vs. Police?
I see things as a learning curve here. Both law enforcement and citizens. New laws, difficult to understand laws, rights, authority, responsibility, ignorance, male dominance factors, and humanity are all at play in the big picture. I can see both sides of the coin, and I understand far more than I can put into words.
If we could all work together (or as a team)? Hopefully one of these days very soon. Due to a few rotten apples in each barrel however.....this still remains a hope for the future mainly. Some wish to test authority, some authority seek dominance, and everyone is doing the right thing in their own minds. We should all go back to grade school days. Learn in class, and play nice together on the playground and have fun before we all grow up and farther apart. Nothing is ever easy, and these days less folks seem to be willing to put forth much effort in accomplishing a goal individually or as a team much less care about any common goal since individuality tops the list of priorities. If we all worked together this country wouldn't be in the condition it's in right now. Some of us will continue to hope, and some of us will continue to speak to those who don't want to listen. Hope without action isn't much hope, and talk without example is just a waste of oxygen. Take a step in the right direction every day. Matter of fact, try stepping in any direction in someone else' shoes for a few minutes each day. We can all do better than we have been for sure. What's it going to take?
July 20th, 2012 12:24 AM
Really? Then answer me this: Why do the fearful OMG/MWAG type calls require anything but an attempt to confirm behavior that corroborates the unsubstantiated fear evidenced by the caller? And, lacking any such corroborating factors, why is anyone stopped in a "papers please" type deal merely on the baseless fear of a caller?
Originally Posted by glocknug
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
July 20th, 2012 01:32 AM
Well, I see it this way. Back in the 60's, there were a lot of people marching, picketing and doing things that were perfectly legal but still getting harassed by the police. Those people happened to be minorities. Did they have an attitude? Yes, I am sure they did. Mainly because they had been harassed and had seen their friends harassed for simply being someplace that the police (government) thought they shouldn't, or acting in a way that the police (government) thought they shouldn't act. They were out there standing up for their civil rights, just as they should. Rights that were protected under the Bill of rights. Rights such as their 1 st amendment right to free speech. Or their 4th amendment right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures. And their 15th amendment rights The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. And other rights and demands of equality they had.
It is very similar to the OC movement. OC is leagl in many states. Perfectly, 100% legal. Yet, many police officers and police departments do not like it. They have a mind set that it should not and must not be allowed. We have seen many videos posted where the person OC'ing was doing so legally, and yet was still harassed by the police and even arrested wrongfully. While I have not been harassed myself, thankfully the Shelby County Sheriffs Department is very OC aware and friendly to it as an institution, there reamain many, many law enforcement agencies that are quite hostile toward the practice reguardless of the fact that it is perfectly legal.
Should a Jewish person be stopped on the street and asked for ID simply because someone called the police and complained that there is a Jewish person walking down the street and that makes them uncomfortable or frightened? Of course not. Should a black person be stopped and harassed for being somewhere simply because a racist called the police to complain about a black person in an area that they feel they do not belong in? Of course not. So why then, should a person who has a legally carried gun, secured in a holster on their hip, who is not threatening anyone in any way, be stopped by the police, questioned, demanded to show ID and prove they are obeying the law when the police can see no crime is being committed and in fact, is protected by the second amendment of that very same Bill of Rights mentioned above? Answer, they shouldn't. And yet, it happens all the time.
So you'll have to excuse some of us OC'ers who develop something of an attitude. I for one can completely understand it.
July 20th, 2012 01:34 AM
Because there are so many police that like to give OCers a hard time I'd suppose.
Originally Posted by glocknug
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK
July 20th, 2012 01:37 AM
I am completely aware. I handle all of these calls as a "consensual encounter". If you didnt really want to talk to me, you don't have to. However, this is kind of my point. There are some that don't want to talk, or hear about the 911 call that came in. If so, fine... have a nice day...
Originally Posted by sgb
But it seems as though some people try to make that 911 call that I a responding to an issue. Why cant we just have a simple conversation? You are not detained, but instead of it being a Police vs. OC situation... why not consent to a short conversation and make sure everything is fine? That way when the next 911 call comes in, if it does, we can simply tell our dispatchers that we already had a conversation with that individual and they are not a threat?
As far as the ID thing goes... I admit, I ask for ID on EVERY call I go to, whether its this or somthing else. It is not disrespectful. If you dont want to show it, ok... this shouldnt be a huge issue. We are just trying to figure out who we are talking to. I have been stopped by the Police in neighboring jurisdictions while out with a pistol. They ask for my ID and I provide it. I explain to them why I had my gun, and they understand! Keep in mind...
The majority of the time, we are NOT coming into contact with citizens following the law. Just like everybody on here who carries, We want to go home to our family at the end of our shift! I hate the us vs. them thing, and I hate that the uniform sometimes puts a target on your back. You have to understand why we are careful! People who carry are doing so to defend themselves against the BG, we are trying to help with that. Why not assist us with this?
A lot of OCers on here have probably had encounters with the Police as I have described. It doesnt have to be a negative thing! We are on the SAME TEAM!
July 20th, 2012 01:39 AM
I dont think they are "out to give you a hard time". We respond to several dangerous calls, and several "what for" calls. Either way, we want to go home to our family, just like you. We are on the same team here!
Originally Posted by Burns
Last edited by Rock and Glock; July 20th, 2012 at 10:20 AM.
July 20th, 2012 01:51 AM
Like I said in another reply, I will ask for ID on any call I go on, to see who I am talking to. If you really wanted to say no, then fine. But why? This would be a consensual encounter type situation. If you did say agree to it... then 20 minutes down the road, when another call comes in, we can tell our dispatchers that we already made contact with you, and everything is great.
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
We are both carrying for the same reason! Why cant we work together?
I am curious what the majority of OCers think about those who walk down the road with assault rifles, just because they can, to make a video? Doesnt this hurt all of us that carry? Shouldnt those who carry work with the Police to solve the same issues we are all working toward?
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