Open carrier at batman movie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pistology

It's wrong that a posting may turn a good shoot into bad because self defense is always justification of lethal force. Notwithstanding, under TN Criminal Code, "POSSESSION OF A WEAPON ON POSTED PROPERTY OR IN A POSTED BUILDING IS PROHIBITED AND IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE". And, "Possession of a weapon on posted property in violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor punishable by fine only of five hundred dollars ($500)."
So the bold part of your statement is invalid.

---

The theater in TN did not have a sign displayed in accordance with regulation, so my point is valid. That's why the 3 men weren't arrested, and that's why the cop told the theater to fix the sign.

One of the standards used in determining what was/is legal and what is not is what a reasonable and prudent person would think or do.

The first question asked is "Was the officer/person legally there or conducting a legal activity in the first place?" If the answer to that question is no then everything after that is a mute point. It does not make a bit of difference how good your intentions are if you fail that first question you are done.

Places that are posted have to have certain signage and so on agree with that but in theory the fact that the theatre implied or posted their intentions "could"have a legal holding if anything ever happened and a firearm was used. My home state the signs have force of law and I respect the businesses right to post their property. As I have stated my right to carry does not trample their right to say what comes on their property.



If you don't want to go there because the business is posted don't go it is that simple. If you choose to carry in a posted place and are put in a position to use your firearm, justified or not, you can/will go to jail as you fail the first part of the test it is simple as that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

One of the standards used in determining what was/is legal and what is not is what a reasonable and prudent person would think or do.

The first question asked is "Was the officer/person legally there or conducting a legal activity in the first place?" If the answer to that question is no then everything after that is a mute point. It does not make a bit of difference how good your intentions are if you fail that first question you are done.

Places that are posted have to have certain signage and so on agree with that but in theory the fact that the theatre implied or posted their intentions "could"have a legal holding if anything ever happened and a firearm was used. My home state the signs have force of law and I respect the businesses right to post their property.

---

A "reasonable and prudent person" who did not want firearms on their property in your state would post the sign in accordance with regulation, not make their own variation and hope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

As I have stated my right to carry does not trample their right to say what comes on their property.

---

...in your state. My state takes a different view, other states may very.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

If you don't want to go there because the business is posted don't go it is that simple.

---

Fortunately in my state these signs do not carry the force of law and I am free to ignore such silly irrational fears by the property owner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

If you choose to carry in a posted place and are put in a position to use your firearm, justified or not, you can/will go to jail as you fail the first part of the test it is simple as that.

---

And that is the reason to avoid such places. Not because the property owner 'has a right', but because you can go to jail for otherwise lawfully defending yourself. The property owners phobia will land you in prison. Such situations are best avoided regardless of whether or not it concerns guns or not. Sexual harassment is a good example of the same thing, where the 'victim' gets to decide if a crime even occurred at all, and set the severity thereof. There is no objectively observed damage, there is only a bias.

Armyman. The right of a business owner to post/not to post or determine who or what comes into his place of business is nationwide not just state by state and not just in regards to firearms.

Yes each state has there own regulations whether or not to allow a business to post in regards to firearms allowed in their business. Yes if they are going to post a sign that carries the weight of law then it should conform to the guidelines needed. Again you make your own choices in regards to you and yours going to a place that does not allow firearms but in the end they really do not care.
If you choose not to support them then you again have to make the choice as to which ones you will do businees with but should you choose to not support any business or person that is anti gun you will end up leading a pretty boring life. Your kids would have to be home schooled, you would have to provide your own medical care, you could not hold a union job as all mentioned have organizations that are anti gun.

But the choice is yours. There have been many discussions on the forum in regards to carrying in posted areas contrary to their states laws and it is a personal choice. Do you as a law abiding citizen obey the law and disarm before entering or do you knowingly break the law and carry anyway? The choice is yours and you face whatever comes about if you have to use your weapon in self defense.

Sign not noticeable! Don't know if signs hold weight of law in "whatever state this is". Just love how some internet news reports give the city but not the state. So the two CC individuals were not even noticed. If the OC individual had CC'd instead, then none of the three would have been called out. I think I would have asked for a refund and just left. I guess the OC blew it for all three of them. One example why OC does not always work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

Armyman. The right of a business owner to post/not to post or determine who or what comes into his place of business is nationwide not just state by state and not just in regards to firearms.

---

It's actually state-by-state, as evidenced by 1. no federal regulation on the matter, and 2. state laws very. In my state, 'no-firearms' signs carry about as much weight as 'no outside food or drink'. It's not illegal to carry into a business with a 'no-firearms' sign posted in my state, and so I do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

Yes each state has there own regulations whether or not to allow a business to post in regards to firearms allowed in their business. Yes if they are going to post a sign that carries the weight of law then it should conform to the guidelines needed. Again you make your own choices in regards to you and yours going to a place that does not allow firearms but in the end they really do not care.
If you choose not to support them then you again have to make the choice as to which ones you will do businees with but should you choose to not support any business or person that is anti gun you will end up leading a pretty boring life.

---

I'm trying to show you that your ultimatum 'comply or leave' (my words) doesn't work. I do businesses with all such places while carrying, and so far they're happy to take my money, and I'm satisfied with their product, so it's a win/win. No harm don. No laws broken. Everyone's happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

Your kids would have to be home schooled..

---

Public schools are not private businesses and as such are already 'gun-free-zones' through other legislation. I keep my gun in the car while at my children's school for that reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

...you would have to provide your own medical care...

---

I get TryCare through the Army.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

...you could not hold a union job...

---

Dear God who would want a union job anyway. Unions should be illegal, but that's for another forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

as all mentioned have organizations that are anti gun.

---

Yes, and in my state I can still carry onto private property despite any policy to the contrary and this is perfectly legal for me to do. If they ask me to leave then I have to leave, but flying under the radar is the whole point, so if they 'make' me then a criminal could also 'make' me and I need to change how I carry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

Do you as a law abiding citizen obey the law and disarm before entering or do you knowingly break the law and carry anyway?

---

I gotta love those loaded questions. Here, have some data:

Quote:

---

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/southdakota.pdf

Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
“NO”

“No Firearm” signs in South Dakota have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is
specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry.

---

As a law-abiding citizen I comply with intrusive permit requirements and intrusive background checks. I keep my paperwork updated, I even over-pay my taxes. I comply with all legal requirements no matter how retarded they are, even leaving my firearm in my car while at my child's school (yes, permitted carriers should be allowed to carry onto any school grounds, just like Oregon). I'm not a bad person just because I ignore your little policy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

The choice is yours and you face whatever comes about if you have to use your weapon in self defense.

---

Indeed, but understand that the private business's policy on guns will have no influence since the private policy has no legal force in my state.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tkruf

Sign not noticeable! Don't know if signs hold weight of law in "whatever state this is". Just love how some internet news reports give the city but not the state. So the two CC individuals were not even noticed. If the OC individual had CC'd instead, then none of the three would have been called out. I think I would have asked for a refund and just left. I guess the OC blew it for all three of them. One example why OC does not always work.

---

This story occurred in Tennessee and yes 'no-firearms' signs have the force of law in that state:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/tennessee.pdf

Armyman.

I think you are misunderstanding to a point what I am saying.

I realize that regulations regarding firearms in a private business are state by state. The right of a business to enact "rules" as to who can come onto their property (No shirt, no shoes, no service type thing) is in every state and is enforceable, in many cases under criminal trespass statutes.

In regards to schools, unions and medical care I was referring to the PTA (or whatever they are called now), the Association of School Administrators, ER Nurses Associations, the American Medical Association and so on that are anti gun. In many cases, some would say, simply by sending your child to school, taking them to the doctor, going to a movie with a particular actor, buying a CD by certain musicians you are in fact supporting the anti gun movement by using their services or buying their products.
If you use TriCare through the military many of their providers do not allow firearms to be carried on their premises and as stated the organizations they belong to and are licensed by are anti gun.

As we both have stated it goes state by state in regards to the weight of law in regards to the signs. Many carry concealed regardless of the signs or whether they carry the weight of law or not and that is a personal choice but should you carry in a place that is posted and the posting carries weight should you have to use your weapon you will not be covered.

So on the last screen shot that is posted, it says "Unless otherwise authorized by law, no person shall knowingly posesses, have under the person's control, convey, yadda yadda yadda....." So does my CCW license / permit authorize me to carry my weapon ??? Just a thought.....I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, so please let me know. God Bless :smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ksholder

This thread is a good example of why there needs to be sign standards as in some states, TX comes to mind. In OH, the only standard is that there is a sign somewhere on the premesis. We have a theater - Springdale 18 - that is posted, but in such a poor manner as to make the signs virtually unnoticable. I had been there many times before I saw the signs. They are in about a 6 point font, at ankle level and not on every door.

After I saw the signs, I went back the next day to confirm what I had seen. To read the sign, actually be able to discern what it says, I had to get on my knees in front of the door. Obviously, I did this in the morning before they opened. In addition to the size of the sign, it is light text on a clear background and tends to blend in with the surroundings. Most people looking for these signs will fail to see them - BUT, they still have the force of law.

I do not go to that theater anymore and have not since the day I saw the sign 4 years ago (before getting my CCW). We have other options in town, but my point is if someone were carrying at the Springdale 18, they would be in violation of the law, but it would be totally understandable as management has not effectively posted their premesis. I would hope if management called the cops that the cops would act as the one in the OPs story and not arrest the CCer/OCer because they were unaware of the signage.

I have contacted my state reps and senators about this in the past, and they have no appetite for homogenizing no carry signs in the state. It seems to me that if you are going to hold people responsible for following sign laws, that the signs should be uniform in size, placement and content so that carriers have a chance. Just my $0.02.

Here are pics I took when I returned to see what the sign said. The last one is a pretty significant blow-up of the sign.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...an-movie-6.jpg

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VBVAGUY

So on the last screen shot that is posted, it says "Unless otherwise authorized by law, no person shall knowingly posesses, have under the person's control, convey, yadda yadda yadda....." So does my CCW license / permit authorize me to carry my weapon ??? Just a thought.....I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, so please let me know. God Bless :smile:

---

See post 89 - this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ksholder

See post 89 - this thread.

---

Thanks I just went back and saw it. I wonder though if someone had the time and money if they would challenge that :danceban: God Bless :smile:

Question for you ArmyMan. If someone comes to your house, do you expect them to abide by the rules you have for your home, or are they allowed to do whatever they feel like doing? If you expect them to abide by your rules what is the difference between your house and someones business?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

Armyman.

I think you are misunderstanding to a point what I am saying.

---

I think I'm misunderstanding in toto what you're saying. I'm talking about carrying into a business that would rather I not, and you're talking about funding. We're not on the same page at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by archer51

Question for you ArmyMan. If someone comes to your house, do you expect them to abide by the rules you have for your home, or are they allowed to do whatever they feel like doing? If you expect them to abide by your rules what is the difference between your house and someones business?

---

I have never advocated carrying into someone's home while I'm a guest.

A private residence is not a business, subject to labor law and pubic accommodation. A 'social guest' is not a 'customer' or an 'employee'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArmyMan

I have never advocated carrying into someone's home while I'm a guest.

A private residence is not a business, subject to labor law and pubic accommodation. A 'social guest' is not a 'customer' or an 'employee'.

---

Alright, what if a business posts a sign that says "Shoes and Shirts Required". Are you going to go ahead and go in without wearing them?

Having owned my own business, if I posted a requirement, I expected it to be followed. A customer had a choice, either follow my rules, in the place where I paid the bills, or stay out.