Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? - Page 10

Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

This is a discussion on Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tacman605 Well let's see. Steffen answered this one for me thank you for posting this. . So the media got the story ...

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  1. #136
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Well let's see. Steffen answered this one for me thank you for posting this.

    .

    So the media got the story wrong, OMG surely not? So since the event did not happen the way they said this analogy does not apply.
    So, you trust an anonymous person on the an internet forum giving you a second hand story and taking that as a fact......Okee dokee. Tacman....you been away too long
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
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  2. #137
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    No probably not.

    If I was dispatched to a MWAG call, I'd have to stop and check it out.
    No disrespect I really wish I could trust LEO again.
    In many case you already know the BG with the warrant and the record a mile long. And he is still right down the block where he was yesterday and the night before.
    You were in court with him last month. You may even have arrested a few of his friends in the past. Good chance DA told you to back off.
    You saw him a couple times but stopped me instead. I don't even have a traffic ticket on my record. That is what I cannot live with.
    If I tell you on the 24 and Perice they are sell drugs out of a rental house you can stand there and watch it. You tell me to move on mind my own business. and it goes on for a year. But the next evening you ask me for a ID because I am walking to dinner.
    Simple the Court has ruled I do not have to produce an ID just because someone ask for it. That should be the end of it.
    Why are my rights any less important than the BG with rock in his pocket on the corner?
    NONAME762 likes this.

  3. #138
    Senior Moderator
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    Why are my rights any less important than the BG with rock in his pocket on the corner?
    Who said that they were?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  4. #139
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Who said that they were?
    that is where this thread started A man breaking No law was stopped and pressured to provide ID. If you even tried that with a dealer on the corner around here, you would be in big trouble. But a normal citizen is fair game. Our COP police made it clear he makes the law and instructed his officers to take anyone OC to the ground make it hurt and take their gun.
    HotGuns I grew up and spent most of my life believing LEO/and fire fighters were the best . The real Lone Range and superman. And for the most part it was true.
    That has changed it is no longer the case . Maybe we if face it for what it is there is some hope. LEO only enforce the PC of the agenda they serve anymore.
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  5. #140
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    LEO only enforce the PC of the agenda they serve anymore.
    That may be true in Wisconsin.

    You need to meet the guy that I work for and ask him what he thinks about being PC. He might change your mind.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #141
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    So, you trust an anonymous person on the an internet forum giving you a second hand story and taking that as a fact......Okee dokee. Tacman....you been away too long
    There is no reason to doubt the validity of his claim just like there is no reason to doubt the validity of what you say on here. Everyone is pretty much anonymous on the internet.

    It appears that none of the people involved had an issue with it according to this article.

    The operation lasted more than two hours and Oates said officers searched just the one car where they found the mask, guns and suspect.

    Oates said “investigative detentions” like the one Saturday are very rare, but allowable under the law.

    None of the 40 people detained have lodged complaints, Oates said, but the department has heard complaints form other people who weren’t involved in the stops.
    Oates apologized for the inconvenience the operation imposed on people, but said it was needed to catch a dangerous bank robber.

    “No question we inconvenienced citizens, and I feel badly about that,” Oates said.
    The operation will be reviewed, Oates said, but he stands by the lieutenant who ordered it.
    “I can’t find fault with the decisions that were made,” he said.
    If there was a miscarriage of justice, a constitutional violation or whatever do you not think that every attorney in 14 states would have been all over this like white on rice? I googled it several different ways and found nothing in regards to legal action taken either individually or as a group. No attorney stepped up and said they would file for them.

    Yep it raised question and apparently those questions were answered to the effect while it was an out of the ordinary tactic, it was within the law and it worked.

    Maybe I have been over here to long. I know that it is getting really old hearing the whining, sniveling and bitching about how someone touched my crayon and the US is becoming a police state, and the Nazis did the same thing to the Jews, the US had internment camps for the Japanese in WW 2 and so on. If everyone who is stopped, asked for ID or whatever thinks they have been violated get an attorney, file a lawsuit, file a complaint, start a media campaign, go before the city council or the ultimate non legal action make a video and post it on youtube. If it is so obviously a violation of civil rights bring it before the court, if not go on about your damn business.
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  7. #142
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Re: Is a request for you ID really an infringement of your rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    There is no reason to doubt the validity of his claim just like there is no reason to doubt the validity of what you say on here. Everyone is pretty much anonymous on the internet.

    It appears that none of the people involved had an issue with it according to this article.



    If there was a miscarriage of justice, a constitutional violation or whatever do you not think that every attorney in 14 states would have been all over this like white on rice? I googled it several different ways and found nothing in regards to legal action taken either individually or as a group. No attorney stepped up and said they would file for them.

    Yep it raised question and apparently those questions were answered to the effect while it was an out of the ordinary tactic, it was within the law and it worked.

    Maybe I have been over here to long. I know that it is getting really old hearing the whining, sniveling and bitching about how someone touched my crayon and the US is becoming a police state, and the Nazis did the same thing to the Jews, the US had internment camps for the Japanese in WW 2 and so on. If everyone who is stopped, asked for ID or whatever thinks they have been violated get an attorney, file a lawsuit, file a complaint, start a media campaign, go before the city council or the ultimate non legal action make a video and post it on youtube. If it is so obviously a violation of civil rights bring it before the court, if not go on about your damn business.
    One thing's for certain, now that SCOTUS says it's okay to tape LEO... There will be a lot more of it.

    Other than that, I do believe we need to be somewhat less compliant with unnecessary, even if slightly, infringements.

    99% of my dealings with LEO have been perfectly fine... A couple of them will forever leave their mark, making it improbable that I give the benefit of the doubt in an encounter... Especially if Iam doing nothing illegal.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  8. #143
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    Thumbs up Excellent Summary!

    Maybe I have been over here to long. I know that it is getting really old hearing the whining, sniveling and bitching about how someone touched my crayon and the US is becoming a police state, and the Nazis did the same thing to the Jews, the US had internment camps for the Japanese in WW 2 and so on. If everyone who is stopped, asked for ID or whatever thinks they have been violated get an attorney, file a lawsuit, file a complaint, start a media campaign, go before the city council or the ultimate non legal action make a video and post it on youtube. If it is so obviously a violation of civil rights bring it before the court, if not go on about your damn business.
    wmhawth and Ogre like this.

  9. #144
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    There is no reason to doubt the validity of his claim just like there is no reason to doubt the validity of what you say on here. Everyone is pretty much anonymous on the internet.

    It appears that none of the people involved had an issue with it according to this article.



    If there was a miscarriage of justice, a constitutional violation or whatever do you not think that every attorney in 14 states would have been all over this like white on rice? I googled it several different ways and found nothing in regards to legal action taken either individually or as a group. No attorney stepped up and said they would file for them.

    Yep it raised question and apparently those questions were answered to the effect while it was an out of the ordinary tactic, it was within the law and it worked.

    Maybe I have been over here to long. I know that it is getting really old hearing the whining, sniveling and bitching about how someone touched my crayon and the US is becoming a police state, and the Nazis did the same thing to the Jews, the US had internment camps for the Japanese in WW 2 and so on. If everyone who is stopped, asked for ID or whatever thinks they have been violated get an attorney, file a lawsuit, file a complaint, start a media campaign, go before the city council or the ultimate non legal action make a video and post it on youtube. If it is so obviously a violation of civil rights bring it before the court, if not go on about your damn business.
    That sums up my thoughts exactly. I'm glad there are some members here who feel the same as I do. I know we are apparently in the minority here, but it's still good to see.
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  10. #145
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    There is no reason to doubt the validity of his claim just like there is no reason to doubt the validity of what you say on here. Everyone is pretty much anonymous on the internet.

    It appears that none of the people involved had an issue with it according to this article.



    If there was a miscarriage of justice, a constitutional violation or whatever do you not think that every attorney in 14 states would have been all over this like white on rice? I googled it several different ways and found nothing in regards to legal action taken either individually or as a group. No attorney stepped up and said they would file for them.

    Yep it raised question and apparently those questions were answered to the effect while it was an out of the ordinary tactic, it was within the law and it worked.

    Maybe I have been over here to long. I know that it is getting really old hearing the whining, sniveling and bitching about how someone touched my crayon and the US is becoming a police state, and the Nazis did the same thing to the Jews, the US had internment camps for the Japanese in WW 2 and so on. If everyone who is stopped, asked for ID or whatever thinks they have been violated get an attorney, file a lawsuit, file a complaint, start a media campaign, go before the city council or the ultimate non legal action make a video and post it on youtube. If it is so obviously a violation of civil rights bring it before the court, if not go on about your damn business.
    I never went so far as what you are implying. And "whining" about things as you put it has been what has brought about good and bad change in this country. And, as far as what is "legal" and how we interpret that as being the right thing to do is definitly in the eyes of the beholder. Let us be honest....if it is a LE issue the LEO's here will mostly side with LE as long as it met "the law". We have discussed numerous times here that just because you can do something does not make it right.

    And...just because it worked "here" is getting to be a reason to justify widespread use or display of anything, or a better way of putting is: "we will forget the other 100 times it did not work and only highlite the times it did.

    As far as validity, I was not questioning the posters authenticity. I must have not used enough emoticoms again. But the fact is you took the version of what YOU wanted to hear and made a judgement the papers got it wrong without any other proof at the time except an anonymous post. That was all I was saying.

    I for one never indulge in hyperbole (ok, maybe a couple of times(notice the clever use of emoticoms). I did not bring up internment camps or any other such nonsense. I do bring up constantly that if an OC'er is within the law they should not be hassled. If they are 'baiting" the cops they are idiots but within their rights. Sound familiar....just because you can do something you maybe sometimes shouldn't.

    Anyhoo, after chatting with ya we know where we come from and my background...BTW: my yahoo messenger had been disabled so I was not chatting, if I see you online we can discuss this further so I can show you the error of your ways(notice the emoticoms again LOL)

    And finally, we need people to keep vigilant even if the are DB's. Because you know LE will take every advantage the courts give them and say "it is legal and it worked". We do not want to go down the road where SCOTUS hypotheticaly rules that you can enter a persons house for any reason at all to search for xyz (yes, the use of hyperbole here). Then LE would do that because it is a legal tool they can use.
    Last edited by suntzu; December 2nd, 2012 at 05:01 AM.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  11. #146
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    There is no reason to doubt the validity of his claim just like there is no reason to doubt the validity of what you say on here. Everyone is pretty much anonymous on the internet.
    Unless, of course, he was eating at Steak N Shake ...

    I personally was threatened with being put under a jail by a CLEO for legally selling a handgun to someone when that other person stupidly carried it concealed w/o a permit b/c that CLEO was ignorant of the law. We've seen cops murder a suspect who was handcuffed and subdued; pull a CC with permit through his car window and beat the snot out of him; illegally break into homes, beat down little old ladies, and steal legally owned guns; approach citizens with guns drawn and steal their guns; the MO AG decided fixed knives are illegal to carry with a CCW permit (completely legal by statute) and it cost Columbia, MO $20k; don't forget F&F; and the list goes on. There's a plethora of jobs where people get killed or maimed; that's no excuse for trampling the rights of others. There are countless examples of LEO's, from patrol officers to CLEO's to state AG's to Fed AG's breaking/bending laws to further their own agendas. If someone has the motivation to call them out on it on the slightest hint of violating rights or being hassled, good for them. The recording devices are necessary to even the playground should the incident go to court.

    For the LEO's on the board: If you get a call that there's a man in neighbor's yard walking around with a running chainsaw and the caller is afraid for her children and you go to the addr only to find a tree trimmer cleaning up fallen branches, do you stop the guy from working to chat him up or do you drive away cussing the twit that called in a complaint?

  12. #147
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I might do it just to be friendly. It dosent mean that you are doing anything wrong.
    I talk to lots of people. It dosen't mean that I am "interviewing" them.
    I have had a number of pleasant conversations with on duty uniformed LEO while OCing, I do find it interesting that in a Stop-N-Rob with 5-12 other people I'm the one that gets a nod or "How's it goin'" some times I am sure it is what I call a "bump", LEO just checking how I react and once he sees I have no fear it turns into a nice conversation. Sometimes I think they see someone with whom they can have a pleasant conversation with as a little break in a day of dealing with @holes.

    I always let the LEO set the tone for the encounter; friendly gets friendly in return, hostile gets @hole in return and I can only recall one of those.
    carracer and 64zebra like this.

  13. #148
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    And here we go again.

    Nedrgr21. The video from Steak and Shake was full of inconsistencies from what was on the video to what the poster narrated. The video was stopped at times because as he said "Nothing was going on" great so that now allows anyone to fill in the blanks. I watched it and gave my opinion of it and you have yours.

    Like I said before if the act was illegal, a constitutional violation and so horrendous when does the lawsuit go to court? Where is the legal defense fund link so I can donate .50 cents to the cause?

    In regards to your other scenarios obviously you have much more time on your hands than I do so please post the links to the videos and the related docket numbers of the federal court cases, I would love to read them. A decision made by the AG, the legal mind for that state, is a very far reach from a cop on the street. An AG ruling is law, a legal opinion put into force so the cop follows it, he did not make the decision nor did he probably have any input into it.

    For the LEO's on the board: If you get a call that there's a man in neighbor's yard walking around with a running chainsaw and the caller is afraid for her children and you go to the addr only to find a tree trimmer cleaning up fallen branches, do you stop the guy from working to chat him up or do you drive away cussing the twit that called in a complaint?
    I am not a LEO anymore but yes I would make contact with him and say something to the effect of "Hello, you are not gonna believe the call we had on you". When done there I would make contact with the caller and tell them that it's ok, it is not a serial killer with a chain saw it is a tree trimmer but thank you for reporting your concern and call anytime. It is simple people skills.
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    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #149
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    Technically, yes, it IS an infringement of your rights, since the Feds abilities are spelled out in the Constitution, and what's not spelled out is left to the states and the people... and if the state hasn't said anything about it, it's then left to the person.


    The state has already defined when it's allowed to demand an ID (When you're doing something that requires one, such as driving). If you aren't doing something that requires an ID, they do not have the 'right' to demand one from you.



    But we all know how well semantics play out... even judges can't friggin agree with each other on the same damn issues.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbglock View Post
    Police can't legally ask anybody for any kind of ID without probable cause. OC, sure, but CC? Unless you're printing and they want to confirm your CCP, it's an illegal request.

    AZ tried to circumvent this but Feds won't let 'em.
    Nope... not even if OC ... unless there is probable cause they are committing a crime, have committed a crime, or about to commit a crime. Standing there OC'g, doesn't qualify as long as it is legal there to OC...... at least that's what the courts say too. Rulings have supported.... that legally carrying a gun by and in itself... is NOT probable cause. Otherwise, they should start ID'g and checking everyone wearing hoodies too.
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