Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? - Page 11

Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

This is a discussion on Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tacman605 I am not a LEO anymore but yes I would make contact with him and say something to the effect of ...

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Thread: Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

  1. #151
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I am not a LEO anymore but yes I would make contact with him and say something to the effect of "Hello, you are not gonna believe the call we had on you". When done there I would make contact with the caller and tell them that it's ok, it is not a serial killer with a chain saw it is a tree trimmer but thank you for reporting your concern and call anytime.
    So you wouldn't repeatedly ask for ID, temporarily confiscate his chainsaw, call for additional officers to help, check out all his credentials, etc? So why aren't all MWAG calls handled the same? "Hey, I know OC is legal here, but we had someone concerned about you carrying call in. Just needed to make sure you weren't doing anything silly with the gun. Have a nice day". No repeated requests for id as in most vids, no taking the firearm from it's safely holstered position, no show of force with multiple squad cars, ... If handled like this there would be no confrontations and no vids on youtube.

    All scenarios except the MO AG were linked to in threads on this site with video. And sorry, but no, an AG's opinion is not law - it is just that, an opinion given to government officials (supposedly) based on laws passed by the legislature. You complain about inconsistencies, which were addressed, but if the full vid had been posted you'd claim you didn't have time to watch it and somehow you only see your assumptions as being valid and expect others to see it that way as well. Whatever.
    Last edited by nedrgr21; December 3rd, 2012 at 02:37 PM.


  2. #152
    New Member Array dogguy's Avatar
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    Goes to probable cause, If it is legal to open carry, you are not breaking any law by doing so. No reason to be stopped in the first place in order to be asked for ID.
    carracer and atctimmy like this.

  3. #153
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Something to consider: In my county (Macon,TN) only 5% of the eligible adults are licensed to carry (I am btw licensed). So, if a LEO sees a handgun ( either OC or carelessly CC (flashing or printing) he has a 95% chance that the person with a gun is not supposed to be carrying. In many parts of the country we make up a very small percentage of the population. And this is gun country (rural TN), yet we still only make up 5% of the eligible population. To say that a cop should assume that, if you are OCing that it is obvious that you have a HCP, flies in the face of reason. Most police here wouldn't make an issue of it, but if a deputy happens to stop me and ask for my HCP, I do understand that there is a certain logic behind it. I would produce my HCP and be polite. Due cause can fall within the fact that the law requires you to have your permit on you when carrying. Just as they can check to see if you are carrying your Drivers License when operating a motor vehicle, I am sure they are within their powers to check for an HCP when they see a weapon be carried.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  4. #154
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    OK I am an old fart and retired military. You had to have your ID on you at all times. That spilled over to my DL. I always have it. ( Drives me crazy so many never carry DL or ID. ) A DL is not a right and in many states if you are driving they can ask to see your DL. I have no problems showing my DL or CWL. The cops have enough stress about safety I am not going to add to it. Do I have to show a CWL if I am not doing anything? Maybe - maybe not. I will show it and not think twice.

  5. #155
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    Sorry did not notice this one was still going on.

    Dispatched to a call for service is the main thing to remember. Each officer handles any given situation the was he sees fit. Again if you feel you have been violated file a complaint, lawsuit, youtube video or whatever.

    Yes a ruling by the AG is his opinion however it is generally accepted as the standard whether someone likes it or not and is what LE will go by.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  6. #156
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Ask me who I am no problem. Ask me for id simply state why you need it first and ill happily give it to you. Move to what at least here is almost always the next questions Where you. coming from? Response- Back that way. Where you going? Response- On up this way for a while probably.
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  7. #157
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Being a bit of a devils advocate here, but :
    If .... I'm not driving my car... I don't need my DL with. If I'm not carrying concealed, I don't need my CC license. So, if I'm out walking my dog and OC'g... which is legal .... why is it you think I need my ID on me .... and I'm committing no crime ? Just wondering.

    A MWAG call.... shouldn't be "filtered" first by a dispatcher to determine if there is even cause to send an officer to investigate, and not make any assumptions .....
    if the caller cannot describe a reason for an officer to be dispatched, then why is he ? Could it be, they want to do some passive harrassment of people who OC to discourage it ?

    I'm not required to tell them what I'm doing, where I'm going, nor where I've been .... or any other information for that matter.

    Are we "required" to carry ID with us ... in any State ?
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
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  8. #158
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Being a bit of a devils advocate here, but :
    If .... I'm not driving my car... I don't need my DL with. If I'm not carrying concealed, I don't need my CC license. So, if I'm out walking my dog and OC'g... which is legal .... why is it you think I need my ID on me .... and I'm committing no crime ? Just wondering.

    A MWAG call.... shouldn't be "filtered" first by a dispatcher to determine if there is even cause to send an officer to investigate, and not make any assumptions .....
    if the caller cannot describe a reason for an officer to be dispatched, then why is he ? Could it be, they want to do some passive harrassment of people who OC to discourage it ?

    I'm not required to tell them what I'm doing, where I'm going, nor where I've been .... or any other information for that matter.

    Are we "required" to carry ID with us ... in any State ?
    I agree with the bolded part of your post, assuming you meant to day "should" rather than "shouldn't." However I don't think people are making MWAG calls simply to passively harass carriers. I think they are genuinely scared, if only because of their own ignorance, in which case I feel that dispatchers could play a roll in putting the caller's mind at ease if the carrier is doing nothing threatening or illegal.

  9. #159
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    I keep seeing reason to believe one has a committed a crime in the process of committing a crime or suspicion one is about to commit a crime. The latter I dont think is a legal reason since it implies an officer can see the future or read minds.
    I have respect for LEO. but the saying that Leo has a duty to protect the public is by LEO departments everywhere stated as not true. Over and over PD has stated they have no responsibility to protect the public.
    So while an individual officer may well be trying to protect his patrol area by using his "gut", the claim " Im overstepping my bounds because I have a duty to protect the public doesnt wash. Sorry but cant have it both ways.

  10. #160
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    Yes there are states where you must present ID when requested.

    As far as filtering the calls a dispatcher sitting in the office takes a MWAG call about a man outside a movie theater with a gun. "It's ok OC is legal in this state he is doing nothing wrong" three minutes later he goes in and starts shooting. It is a much better system to the officer go see what is going on.

    As I said before if you are not required to show your ID don't. Argue, invoke whatever rights you want, call your lawyer on speed dial, videotape, audiotape the encounter deal with whatever happens but deal with it.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  11. #161
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    In Wisconsin unless they have PC you may have committed a crime you are not required to show an ID and they can not force you to present one. How ever they do not follow the law. And when they break the law there is not much you can do about it.

  12. #162
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    Something to consider: In my county (Macon,TN) only 5% of the eligible adults are licensed to carry (I am btw licensed). So, if a LEO sees a handgun ( either OC or carelessly CC (flashing or printing) he has a 95% chance that the person with a gun is not supposed to be carrying. In many parts of the country we make up a very small percentage of the population. And this is gun country (rural TN), yet we still only make up 5% of the eligible population. To say that a cop should assume that, if you are OCing that it is obvious that you have a HCP, flies in the face of reason. Most police here wouldn't make an issue of it, but if a deputy happens to stop me and ask for my HCP, I do understand that there is a certain logic behind it. I would produce my HCP and be polite. Due cause can fall within the fact that the law requires you to have your permit on you when carrying. Just as they can check to see if you are carrying your Drivers License when operating a motor vehicle, I am sure they are within their powers to check for an HCP when they see a weapon be carried.
    I really hope you are not a math major LOL....You do not assume that 95 percent of people OC'ing are not allowed to. Do you honestly beleive that most folks that are not allowed to OC will? Anyway, besides the flawed logic in stats in it flawed thinking that a LEO can play the odds by stopping you to ask for your HCP. And to make a further point on your flawed logic you ry to use the example of a drivers liscens. A LEO does not stop your vehicl at random to spot check to see if you have a liscens. He asks for your liscense and you are required by law to show it to him after a stop for cause.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
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  13. #163
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fla View Post
    OK I am an old fart and retired military. You had to have your ID on you at all times. That spilled over to my DL. I always have it. ( Drives me crazy so many never carry DL or ID. ) A DL is not a right and in many states if you are driving they can ask to see your DL. I have no problems showing my DL or CWL. The cops have enough stress about safety I am not going to add to it. Do I have to show a CWL if I am not doing anything? Maybe - maybe not. I will show it and not think twice.
    If it is not a MWAG call and the officer just feels like checking every person OC'ing for a liscens then he is putting the stress on himself, not me. How many BG's walk down the street or go to a resteraunt OC'ing? None.They have it concealed.

    Again...I do not see where an officer needs to check on you at all unless you are doing something stupid or there is a MWAG call...anything else he can deal with his self imposed stress.

    Also, no offense....but the military should have also taught you something besides obeying orders and that is using your own judgment. I am not going to show my liscense because the army got me used to carrying an ID unless I am required to by law.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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  14. #164
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    I do not see it as an infringement of my rights.
    Who is John Galt?

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    When power is up for grabs; personal liberty is usually one of the first casualties…

  15. #165
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    Ok,LEO asking for id is an infringement. Lets say you go to an unfamiliar bank to cash a check in your account. The teller has no idea who you are. They ask for ID. Do you comply, hell yes, it protects your assetts. I dont want anyone in my account. Well if LEO is asking for your id, chances they are protecting everyones rights to safety. If a mwag is called in, dispatch should be "schooled" how to handle the person on the phone. If the mwag is looking in house windows then yes, LEO needs dispatched. If not LEO may drive by and look for themselves, nothing going on,keep moving. Education is a valuable thing that is loosing ground everyday. Look at our society. No loosers, everyone makes the team,and plays. Every place gets a trophey. Right and wrong is how it is seen by the person doing the right or wrong. Amentally challenged person gets a gun and kills someone its not his fault someone else didnt stop him.laws change daily and for LEO to onow every change is impossable. They should be up to par on things they do daily(ask for id).
    Also I read a police officer cannot stop you for driving a car. BS! its called a roadblock. Seen any of these. Read the newspaper. How many unlicensed drivers,drunk drivers have been taken off the road and not kill your family in a traffic accident. LEO is doing their to"PROTECT AND SERVE", I think thats their job.
    I am not LEO. I am glad they are around doing their job. Yes they should be the most educated in law. Being an ass will not help them learn what they need to know. When was the last time a teacher tried to shove a lesson down your throat? How did thst go? Do good, teach the right without force. Not all LEO Iis bad

    Just my opinion.

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