Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

This is a discussion on Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As long as we are talking about the nuances of this issue, we should be clear. The officer has the legal right to REQUEST that ...

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  1. #61
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    As long as we are talking about the nuances of this issue, we should be clear. The officer has the legal right to REQUEST that you identify yourself. In fact, the officer has the legal right to request just about anything to satisfy him/herself that you are not engaged in any illegal activity. That is certainly part of their job and I don't grudge them asking. What is at issue is whether they have the right to detain for non-compliance with that request. We all need to know our rights and just because the officer has the right to ask doesn't mean we have the legal obligation to comply with that request.

    As I stated above, in most cases I don't really think this is an issue I would argue. I would probably identify myself to the officer and perhaps even show some identification document or other if they asked politely. Polite treatment of a law abiding citizen merits a polite response. In ANY case where this interaction took place, though, I would inquire of the officer what his/her understanding is of the law on this and whether they are clear on the fact that I have the right to refuse if I choose to. For any officer that has a clear understanding of this and is not afraid to acknowledge it to a law abiding citizen, I will respond to this professionalism with courtesy and (usually) compliance.

    I agree that they are most often just trying to do a difficult job well, and I agree that it is in our best interest to be friendly with law enforcement. It is a delicate balance to firmly resist the gradual erosion of a controvertial right, while at the same time being part of the solution and not part of the problem. Being firm about maintaining our rights is part of our responsibility as citizens, though. When we entirely cede the responsibility for protecting our rights to the authorities that are trying to erode them, we have already lost.

    Just trying to help with the OP's stated goal of getting us to think about and discuss this.
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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraySkies View Post
    As long as we are talking about the nuances of this issue, we should be clear. The officer has the legal right to REQUEST that you identify yourself. In fact, the officer has the legal right to request just about anything to satisfy him/herself that you are not engaged in any illegal activity. That is certainly part of their job and I don't grudge them asking. What is at issue is whether they have the right to detain for non-compliance with that request. We all need to know our rights and just because the officer has the right to ask doesn't mean we have the legal obligation to comply with that request.

    As I stated above, in most cases I don't really think this is an issue I would argue. I would probably identify myself to the officer and perhaps even show some identification document or other if they asked politely. Polite treatment of a law abiding citizen merits a polite response. In ANY case where this interaction took place, though, I would inquire of the officer what his/her understanding is of the law on this and whether they are clear on the fact that I have the right to refuse if I choose to. For any officer that has a clear understanding of this and is not afraid to acknowledge it to a law abiding citizen, I will respond to this professionalism with courtesy and (usually) compliance.

    I agree that they are most often just trying to do a difficult job well, and I agree that it is in our best interest to be friendly with law enforcement. It is a delicate balance to firmly resist the gradual erosion of a controvertial right, while at the same time being part of the solution and not part of the problem. Being firm about maintaining our rights is part of our responsibility as citizens, though. When we entirely cede the responsibility for protecting our rights to the authorities that are trying to erode them, we have already lost.

    Just trying to help with the OP's stated goal of getting us to think about and discuss this.
    I think you hit the nail on the head when you used the word polite. I would also add the word respectful. If you are ever going to make the choice not to comply with an officer's request you should make every effort to use those two words. Make it clear that your intent is not to make the officer's job more difficult or attack him personally for the way he is doing his job. Let him know that you are simply trying to protect yourself and your rights and that you would like to know if he can legally detain you for failing to comply.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tmarkert View Post
    IMHO most people that would get into a pi$$ing contest with a LEO over something so trivial were out looking for the argument anyhow.
    Maybe they never got picked first for the baseball games, or they got beat up a lot in elementary school. Something along those lines.
    Arguing with the LEO could keep them from doing their job somewhere else. It's not like he's gonna spam your email or hack your Facebook account with the info.
    Handing LEO your ID will take 1 minute if your an upstanding and legal resident. I'd rather that officer be chasing a BG with his/her spare time
    Please don't take this as directly contradicting you, it's only a rebuttal to what was said (IOW the use of "you" is the general term, not Tmarkert)

    IF it were indeed 'trivial' then the officer shouldn't mind you refusing such a trivial request. The officer is demanding ID as a show of power; making you do something for him. The same goes for "look at me when I'm talking to you", "take off those sunglasses" and telling someone who's hands are clearly visible "keep you hands where I can see 'em." None are outrageous demands, each can be justified by the officer and most people are going to tell themselves "my hands Are visible, why make a fuss over being told to do what I'm already doing?" Psychologically it conditions you to obey the next demand/request.
    Simple Psychology 101 stuff, unfortunately some of us recognize it for what it is.

    Unless Officer Friendly is looking for someone named John Q. Doe then learning that the person he's conversing with is John Doe doesn't do him any good. Now, if he were to take that name and call it in to look for 'wants and warrants' then all the innocent John Q. Doe has done is expose himself to being misidentified as someone else. Doing nothing has no risks, cooperating has risks .... which is the safer course?

    Secondly, the officer has access to impact weapons, chemical weapons, electro-discharge weapons and finally deadly weapons, you're NOT gonna keep him around to argue unless he wants to be there. He can get in his car and leave any time he wants, are you gonna stop him?

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tmarkert View Post
    IMHO most people that would get into a pi$$ing contest with a LEO over something so trivial were out looking for the argument anyhow.
    Maybe they never got picked first for the baseball games, or they got beat up a lot in elementary school. Something along those lines.
    Arguing with the LEO could keep them from doing their job somewhere else. It's not like he's gonna spam your email or hack your Facebook account with the info.
    Handing LEO your ID will take 1 minute if your an upstanding and legal resident. I'd rather that officer be chasing a BG with his/her spare time
    And next I suppose you would willingly walk into the "shower"?

    You just don't get it: It's about RIGHTS, we as a nation have willingly surrendered the majority of our original rights as it is. I personally am not willingly giving one more GD inch!

  6. #65
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    Is a request for you ID really an infringement of your rights?

    No.
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    We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists. -

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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxwell47 View Post
    Ask for a discussion on blue and you get every color in the rainbow.

    If asked professionally for ID, produce and ask why.
    If asked to search your vehicle ask why. Whether or not you premit it is up to you but both of these happen in what is essentially public so there is a chance the LEO is just doing their job. And "infringing" my rights or not it is no skin off of my nose to just produce ID. Geez. Get over it folks.

    If asked to come into my house the answer is no. That is not a public place.

    In my opinion it is pretty straight forward.
    Resisting authority has been in my blood for a long time... especially officer friendly's authority... but that's a different story.

    My wallet is not a public place either. If I am doing nothing illegal, he has no reason to detain me, ask me for any ID or anything else. I will, in order to save myself some grief and (possibly)pain, politely refuse. I would ask him if there is a problem... putting the onus of explanation on him. "If there is no legal problem, then, am I free to leave, or am I being detained?"

    I do not open carry. I can, but choose not to. So LEO has even less reason to detain me. However, If I were to choose to exercise my right to open carry, I would expect confrontation. I would be as polite as the video taker was above... but really, that was a total "look at me" set up... and I don't care for those at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by theskunk View Post
    The 'Open Carriers best friend' - a HD video cam for $50








    Kodak makes a HD video cam, the size of a deck of cards, that will be your best friend. I carry a card with the Fl state statutes. I get stopped - "Here is my ID and the state statutes"
    Are you required in FL to give your ID? If not, why do you?

    I am a firm believer in the fact of rights erosion in this country... It's a boiling frog-like-thing, and I don't care for it. One man cannot change that... and we lack the collective will to say "We're mad as heck, and we are not going to take it any more." And, it doesn't have to be armed insurgency... Just everyone who is a citizen of this country standing up for their individual rights. From_______ (fill in the date) forward.

    Shame, that.
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  8. #67
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    Is a request for you ID really an infringement of your rights?
    Of course not. Now if he asked to borrow $20 I might have to say no.

    Mountain/Molehill
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  9. #68
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    The police are *'hunters of men'
    The police are looking for criminals
    The police are looking to put someone in jail
    And they are looking at you.
    I hope you are using heavy duty aluminum foil in your hat. I realize that you did not make up the quote but that has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

    If your state law requires you show ID do so. If it does not then do whatever flips your cookie. Argue, rant, rave, invoke your 5th, 6th, 21st and 33rd amendment rights.

    I have never seen so many posts in regards to how we live in a police state or comparing the stopping of an OC'er, CC'er or whomever compared to the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Obviously none of you have been to an actual country that is a police state, run by a dictator, former general and president for life type thing. Take a trip to any number of African or Middle Eastern countries and stay for a month then come back and post about how the US is turning into a police state.

    Just like others have said "there is a time and place for arguing the point, on the side of the road, sidewalk or whatever is not that place. Don't like it file a complaint with the higher up's and go from there. In my home state of Arkansas I have not seen any gun rights going to hell in a handbasket. As far as I know they have improved since the first CCW's came out. Granted I am not home a lot so if anyone can point something out specific please let me know.

    Many say that cop's have all the attitude when dealing with OC'ers. Well look at what they deal with. Jackasses running around Wal Mart with a rifle, fake RPG's, AR's at the salad bar and so on. Before it is said this has nothing to do with OC the hell it doesn't. These folks are just as much an OC'er as the guy with a pistol on his belt but the thing is that is the standard set the lowest common denominator and that is what we are all judged by.

    We need to educate both sides to make sure everyone comes away a winner.

    To me Kimberpackin said it best,


    Is a request for you ID really an infringement of your rights?

    No.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Of course not. Now if he asked to borrow $20 I might have to say no.

    Mountain/Molehill
    Would you mind showing the registration for that gun... sales receipt? I see you have a box from a Sony widescreen TV out for trash pickup... there have been several of them stolen from a best buy somewhere in the country... would you mind if I saw the purchase receipt? You don't mind if we come in and look around, do you?

    What, you've got nothing to hide, do you? Can you prove that you're the homeowner here? No, well that's interesting... How about if we come inside?

    What's your line in the sand?
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
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    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
    Me, 9/11/13

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I hope you are using heavy duty aluminum foil in your hat. I realize that you did not make up the quote but that has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

    If your state law requires you show ID do so. If it does not then do whatever flips your cookie. Argue, rant, rave, invoke your 5th, 6th, 21st and 33rd amendment rights.

    I have never seen so many posts in regards to how we live in a police state or comparing the stopping of an OC'er, CC'er or whomever compared to the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Obviously none of you have been to an actual country that is a police state, run by a dictator, former general and president for life type thing. Take a trip to any number of African or Middle Eastern countries and stay for a month then come back and post about how the US is turning into a police state.

    Just like others have said "there is a time and place for arguing the point, on the side of the road, sidewalk or whatever is not that place. Don't like it file a complaint with the higher up's and go from there. In my home state of Arkansas I have not seen any gun rights going to hell in a handbasket. As far as I know they have improved since the first CCW's came out. Granted I am not home a lot so if anyone can point something out specific please let me know.

    Many say that cop's have all the attitude when dealing with OC'ers. Well look at what they deal with. Jackasses running around Wal Mart with a rifle, fake RPG's, AR's at the salad bar and so on. Before it is said this has nothing to do with OC the hell it doesn't. These folks are just as much an OC'er as the guy with a pistol on his belt but the thing is that is the standard set the lowest common denominator and that is what we are all judged by.

    We need to educate both sides to make sure everyone comes away a winner.

    To me Kimberpackin said it best,
    I think I love you a little more today than yesterday.

    I'll give you an "Amen" or two for that.

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Would you mind showing the registration for that gun... sales receipt? I see you have a box from a Sony widescreen TV out for trash pickup... there have been several of them stolen from a best buy somewhere in the country... would you mind if I saw the purchase receipt? You don't mind if we come in and look around, do you?

    What, you've got nothing to hide, do you? Can you prove that you're the homeowner here? No, well that's interesting... How about if we come inside?

    What's your line in the sand?
    l find it interesting that people try to make it sound like if someone will give over ID they have no backbone.

    And, as stated, the officer can ask whatever he wants. He could ask me to strip naked and do the chicken dance if he wants, doesn't mean I'm going to do it.

    Is asking for ID an infringement? Absolutely not.

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Why does it have to be all or nothing?

    The place to argue these things is not the side of the road, IMHO.

    Go ahead and provide ID and follow up with a complaint to the department... don't stop bothering them until someone with actual authority gets back to you.

    Why wait for the incident? Get involved with your community and its officers. If you hear of open carry incidents write letters to your chiefs of police, state police, whomever. Write a letter to your editor. Do these things BEFORE you ever get stopped with a MWAG call?

    I find it rather backward that open carriers get all up in arms about educating people and officers but many will only seem to do said educating through confrontation (the worse environment for your points to be taken seriously).

    There are a million ways to get your voice heard and stand up for your rights besides verbally duking it out on the side of the road.

    If that's what you want to do, be my guest, I just think there are more productive ways to stand up for whatever rights you feel are being neglected.
    In over 20 years of carrying I've never been asked to produce my ID.

    If I'm ever asked, I plan to cooperate with the LEO and if I feel my rights are being violated. I'll take it up with a superior at a later time.

    If I don't feel like I've gotten whatever I'm seeking, there are groups who will hear cases and take up the cause if they feel it's warranted.

    I defiantly feel like the side of the road is not the place to stand your ground.
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  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I hope you are using heavy duty aluminum foil in your hat. I realize that you did not make up the quote but that has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

    If your state law requires you show ID do so. If it does not then do whatever flips your cookie. Argue, rant, rave, invoke your 5th, 6th, 21st and 33rd amendment rights.

    I have never seen so many posts in regards to how we live in a police state or comparing the stopping of an OC'er, CC'er or whomever compared to the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Obviously none of you have been to an actual country that is a police state, run by a dictator, former general and president for life type thing. Take a trip to any number of African or Middle Eastern countries and stay for a month then come back and post about how the US is turning into a police state.

    Just like others have said "there is a time and place for arguing the point, on the side of the road, sidewalk or whatever is not that place. Don't like it file a complaint with the higher up's and go from there. In my home state of Arkansas I have not seen any gun rights going to hell in a handbasket. As far as I know they have improved since the first CCW's came out. Granted I am not home a lot so if anyone can point something out specific please let me know.

    Many say that cop's have all the attitude when dealing with OC'ers. Well look at what they deal with. Jackasses running around Wal Mart with a rifle, fake RPG's, AR's at the salad bar and so on. Before it is said this has nothing to do with OC the hell it doesn't. These folks are just as much an OC'er as the guy with a pistol on his belt but the thing is that is the standard set the lowest common denominator and that is what we are all judged by.

    We need to educate both sides to make sure everyone comes away a winner.

    To me Kimberpackin said it best,
    Tac,

    You're right, most of us have never been to countries where there are no rights. We have seen, historically though, countries in which rights have been eroded... in fact, it was us before we became our own Sovereign Nation... And we've seen other, similar countries, even more recently than Nazi Germany, go down the well worn path to stateism.

    Is it an infringement of my rights to be asked for ID? Nope... but it's such a small step from asking to demanding, under the color of law.

    Some of our own have suggested that it may not be the time and place to stand up for one's rights in the middle of the fray... do it later... Write letters... Seek counsel, sue perhaps. All of the latter are impossible for those who have been illegally detained without just cause in our own military prisons... only to be much later released for a COMPLETE lack of evidence.

    "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear." Sorry Charlie, I just cannot buy into this. I have done nothing wrong, I should not be made to feel any inkling of concern, any discomfort at all, for going about my legal business.

    How about the internment camps on our own soil in WWII... For citizens of this country.... no, it can't happen here.... like hell.
    carracer likes this.
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  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post

    Is it an infringement of my rights to be asked for ID? Nope... but it's such a small step from asking to demanding, under the color of law.
    It is no small step... In fact, its a huge cavern, spread across many miles that only state legistators can bridge.

    Until said practice is proposed in a bill and voted into law then there is no recourse for an officer to demand anything.. . no matter how un-challenged he is.

    I'm pretty sick of the US being compared to Nazi Germany. What's the fundamental difference? We are still a republic and we have not given total authority to a single person or party... yet... where such a change in requesting to demanding could be made by the whim of a single man literally overnight,

    That doesn't happen here And if people try it we have a Number of outlets to express our grievances and seek justice.

    People are getting so fired up about an officer asking for ID... its not seeing the forest for the trees. Far more important than refusing is protecting the right to refuse... and that is not done at the side of the road.

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    There's a time to pick your battles, as well as manner in which to conduct that battle. To argue with the LEO on the road side may gain you a tactical advantage for the short while, to press the issue with PD heads, and if necessary in the courts, will gain a strategic advantage for years to come.
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