This is a discussion on Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As long as we are talking about the nuances of this issue, we should be clear. The officer has the legal right to REQUEST that ...
As long as we are talking about the nuances of this issue, we should be clear. The officer has the legal right to REQUEST that you identify yourself. In fact, the officer has the legal right to request just about anything to satisfy him/herself that you are not engaged in any illegal activity. That is certainly part of their job and I don't grudge them asking. What is at issue is whether they have the right to detain for non-compliance with that request. We all need to know our rights and just because the officer has the right to ask doesn't mean we have the legal obligation to comply with that request.
As I stated above, in most cases I don't really think this is an issue I would argue. I would probably identify myself to the officer and perhaps even show some identification document or other if they asked politely. Polite treatment of a law abiding citizen merits a polite response. In ANY case where this interaction took place, though, I would inquire of the officer what his/her understanding is of the law on this and whether they are clear on the fact that I have the right to refuse if I choose to. For any officer that has a clear understanding of this and is not afraid to acknowledge it to a law abiding citizen, I will respond to this professionalism with courtesy and (usually) compliance.
I agree that they are most often just trying to do a difficult job well, and I agree that it is in our best interest to be friendly with law enforcement. It is a delicate balance to firmly resist the gradual erosion of a controvertial right, while at the same time being part of the solution and not part of the problem. Being firm about maintaining our rights is part of our responsibility as citizens, though. When we entirely cede the responsibility for protecting our rights to the authorities that are trying to erode them, we have already lost.
Just trying to help with the OP's stated goal of getting us to think about and discuss this.
IF it were indeed 'trivial' then the officer shouldn't mind you refusing such a trivial request. The officer is demanding ID as a show of power; making you do something for him. The same goes for "look at me when I'm talking to you", "take off those sunglasses" and telling someone who's hands are clearly visible "keep you hands where I can see 'em." None are outrageous demands, each can be justified by the officer and most people are going to tell themselves "my hands Are visible, why make a fuss over being told to do what I'm already doing?" Psychologically it conditions you to obey the next demand/request.
Simple Psychology 101 stuff, unfortunately some of us recognize it for what it is.
Unless Officer Friendly is looking for someone named John Q. Doe then learning that the person he's conversing with is John Doe doesn't do him any good. Now, if he were to take that name and call it in to look for 'wants and warrants' then all the innocent John Q. Doe has done is expose himself to being misidentified as someone else. Doing nothing has no risks, cooperating has risks .... which is the safer course?
Secondly, the officer has access to impact weapons, chemical weapons, electro-discharge weapons and finally deadly weapons, you're NOT gonna keep him around to argue unless he wants to be there. He can get in his car and leave any time he wants, are you gonna stop him?
We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists. -
My wallet is not a public place either. If I am doing nothing illegal, he has no reason to detain me, ask me for any ID or anything else. I will, in order to save myself some grief and (possibly)pain, politely refuse. I would ask him if there is a problem... putting the onus of explanation on him. "If there is no legal problem, then, am I free to leave, or am I being detained?"
I do not open carry. I can, but choose not to. So LEO has even less reason to detain me. However, If I were to choose to exercise my right to open carry, I would expect confrontation. I would be as polite as the video taker was above... but really, that was a total "look at me" set up... and I don't care for those at all.
I am a firm believer in the fact of rights erosion in this country... It's a boiling frog-like-thing, and I don't care for it. One man cannot change that... and we lack the collective will to say "We're mad as heck, and we are not going to take it any more." And, it doesn't have to be armed insurgency... Just everyone who is a citizen of this country standing up for their individual rights. From_______ (fill in the date) forward.
It could be worse!
Of course not. Now if he asked to borrow $20 I might have to say no.Is a request for you ID really an infringement of your rights?
I hope you are using heavy duty aluminum foil in your hat. I realize that you did not make up the quote but that has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.The police are *'hunters of men'
The police are looking for criminals
The police are looking to put someone in jail
And they are looking at you.
If your state law requires you show ID do so. If it does not then do whatever flips your cookie. Argue, rant, rave, invoke your 5th, 6th, 21st and 33rd amendment rights.
I have never seen so many posts in regards to how we live in a police state or comparing the stopping of an OC'er, CC'er or whomever compared to the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Obviously none of you have been to an actual country that is a police state, run by a dictator, former general and president for life type thing. Take a trip to any number of African or Middle Eastern countries and stay for a month then come back and post about how the US is turning into a police state.
Just like others have said "there is a time and place for arguing the point, on the side of the road, sidewalk or whatever is not that place. Don't like it file a complaint with the higher up's and go from there. In my home state of Arkansas I have not seen any gun rights going to hell in a handbasket. As far as I know they have improved since the first CCW's came out. Granted I am not home a lot so if anyone can point something out specific please let me know.
Many say that cop's have all the attitude when dealing with OC'ers. Well look at what they deal with. Jackasses running around Wal Mart with a rifle, fake RPG's, AR's at the salad bar and so on. Before it is said this has nothing to do with OC the hell it doesn't. These folks are just as much an OC'er as the guy with a pistol on his belt but the thing is that is the standard set the lowest common denominator and that is what we are all judged by.
We need to educate both sides to make sure everyone comes away a winner.
To me Kimberpackin said it best,Is a request for you ID really an infringement of your rights?
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
What, you've got nothing to hide, do you? Can you prove that you're the homeowner here? No, well that's interesting... How about if we come inside?
What's your line in the sand?
It could be worse!
And, as stated, the officer can ask whatever he wants. He could ask me to strip naked and do the chicken dance if he wants, doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
Is asking for ID an infringement? Absolutely not.
If I'm ever asked, I plan to cooperate with the LEO and if I feel my rights are being violated. I'll take it up with a superior at a later time.
If I don't feel like I've gotten whatever I'm seeking, there are groups who will hear cases and take up the cause if they feel it's warranted.
I defiantly feel like the side of the road is not the place to stand your ground.
Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
You're right, most of us have never been to countries where there are no rights. We have seen, historically though, countries in which rights have been eroded... in fact, it was us before we became our own Sovereign Nation... And we've seen other, similar countries, even more recently than Nazi Germany, go down the well worn path to stateism.
Is it an infringement of my rights to be asked for ID? Nope... but it's such a small step from asking to demanding, under the color of law.
Some of our own have suggested that it may not be the time and place to stand up for one's rights in the middle of the fray... do it later... Write letters... Seek counsel, sue perhaps. All of the latter are impossible for those who have been illegally detained without just cause in our own military prisons... only to be much later released for a COMPLETE lack of evidence.
"If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear." Sorry Charlie, I just cannot buy into this. I have done nothing wrong, I should not be made to feel any inkling of concern, any discomfort at all, for going about my legal business.
How about the internment camps on our own soil in WWII... For citizens of this country.... no, it can't happen here.... like hell.
It could be worse!
Until said practice is proposed in a bill and voted into law then there is no recourse for an officer to demand anything.. . no matter how un-challenged he is.
I'm pretty sick of the US being compared to Nazi Germany. What's the fundamental difference? We are still a republic and we have not given total authority to a single person or party... yet... where such a change in requesting to demanding could be made by the whim of a single man literally overnight,
That doesn't happen here And if people try it we have a Number of outlets to express our grievances and seek justice.
People are getting so fired up about an officer asking for ID... its not seeing the forest for the trees. Far more important than refusing is protecting the right to refuse... and that is not done at the side of the road.
There's a time to pick your battles, as well as manner in which to conduct that battle. To argue with the LEO on the road side may gain you a tactical advantage for the short while, to press the issue with PD heads, and if necessary in the courts, will gain a strategic advantage for years to come.
Retired USAF E-8. Official forum curmudgeon.
Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth