Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

This is a discussion on Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by limatunes It is no small step... In fact, its a huge cavern, spread across many miles that only state legistators can bridge. ...

Page 6 of 17 FirstFirst ... 234567891016 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 242
Like Tree217Likes

Thread: Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

  1. #76
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,100
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    It is no small step... In fact, its a huge cavern, spread across many miles that only state legistators can bridge.

    That doesn't happen here And if people try it we have a Number of outlets to express our grievances and seek justice.

    People are getting so fired up about an officer asking for ID... its not seeing the forest for the trees. Far more important than refusing is protecting the right to refuse... and that is not done at the side of the road.
    Yes, but Lima, you're white. So am I for that matter, but in the summer, I tend to take on a... shall we say, Latin appearance? And, I speak Spanish as well.... all that aside, if I am stopped in Arizona for a traffic infraction, admittedly a crime...

    I might just be asked for my papers in the summer, at the peak of my "Latin appearance"... I have no such papers to provide... All I have is a driver's license... Now, while the SCOTUS decision doesn't allow for them to do anything about my lack of papers.... I still can be asked for them... And so can my not-so-white friend, co-worker (and citizen) Juan Martinez (name changed to protect the innocent) who is now >50 years old, has resided in this country since he was about 7, and is a legal citizen.

    Yes, we have all the means for redress of grievances that, in fact, we had; prior to (and demonstrated by) the Declaration of Independence.

    And while I am very, very far from any desire to "water the tree of liberty," I do believe that we are "in the pot" and the "gas jet is on." Since I'm a warm blooded mammal, I sense my feets are getting a bit warm...

    And the slight nuances between asking and demanding are made obvious in the video posted elsewhere above... "Is there any reason you don't want to show ID? I just want to make sure you're not a felon... or .... ya da da ya da da".... You bet, it's still just "asking," dripping with nuance, and "AUTHORITY."

    LEO has a very hard job to do.... but stopping some "baiter" wearing shorts and a tee shirt and an OC gun.... Well, he knows he's gonna get a denial... but he's just got to assert his AUTHORITY, doesn't he? WHY?

    Officer friendly could perhaps have better handled the situation with.... "Hey, I see you're open carrying, and I realize that you're most likely not a criminal... but I wanted you to know that because of a citizen complaint, I had to stop and have this discussion with you. You are making some folks uncomfortable... Carry on sir, and have a nice day."

    That would have accomplished at least two things. It would have made the whole thing a non-event... and it never would have wasted the bandwidth on You Tube, DC, or anywhere else.
    Crowman likes this.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #77
    Senior Member Array DocT65's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Gulf Coast
    Posts
    595
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    What says I can't OC without carrying any ID at all? There are no laws, to my knowledge, requiring Americans or Kentuckians to carry identification at all times. And since OC is restricted ONLY by specific location in Kentucky, isn't it like asking for ID while I'm simply out walking (unarmed) in my front yard?

    "Your papers please!"
    OK, let me pick a scab here....I don't know all of the laws in KY, but I do know one law that applies in every state: It is against the law for a number of individuals, including felons, to posess a firearm. In many areas of the country, OC in the absence of a LE uniform or badge will draw yourself attention. Depending on the circumstances and judgement of a LEO, you most certainly could be approached and asked for ID.

    I've said before, there really is no reason to OC unless it is a requirement of your job (LE, armed security, actor in a cowboy movie, etc). If you seek to defend yourself with a firearm, obtain a CC permit and carry concealed. The element of surprise is always a good thing to have in your favor. If you choose to OC and therby draw attention to yourself, be prepared to identify yourself to a LEO without an attitude. You may otherwise find yourself in the clink.
    "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

    Flight Surgeon, USAF
    Law Enforcement Tactical Surgeon

    NRA Patron Member

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,797
    [QUOTE=DocT65;2467886]
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    What says I can't OC without carrying any ID at all? There are no laws, to my knowledge, requiring Americans or Kentuckians to carry identification at all times. And since OC is restricted ONLY by specific location in Kentucky, isn't it like asking for ID while I'm simply out walking (unarmed) in my front yard? ]

    OK, let me pick a scab here....I don't know all of the laws in KY, but I do know one law that applies in every state: It is against the law for a number of individuals, including felons, to posess a firearm. In many areas of the country, OC in the absence of a LE uniform or badge will draw yourself attention. Depending on the circumstances and judgement of a LEO, you most certainly could be approached and asked for ID.

    I've said before, there really is no reason to OC unless it is a requirement of your job (LE, armed security, actor in a cowboy movie, etc). If you seek to defend yourself with a firearm, obtain a CC permit and carry concealed. The element of surprise is always a good thing to have in your favor. If you choose to OC and therby draw attention to yourself, be prepared to identify yourself to a LEO without an attitude. You may otherwise find yourself in the clink.
    How many folks that can not legally own a firearm walk around town with one strapped to their hips? As far as the rest of your "polite" OC bashing......you are basically saying succumb to authority.

    As far as how one carries it is up to them. Some folks think carrying a snubbie is a wate of time for SD. It is no ones business but the individual.

    And, this is always the analogy....if a LEO can stop you to check if you can legally carry a firearm they should be able to stop cars at random to see if you have a lsicense.
    carracer and Crowman like this.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  5. #79
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,100
    [QUOTE=DocT65;2467886]
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    What says I can't OC without carrying any ID at all? There are no laws, to my knowledge, requiring Americans or Kentuckians to carry identification at all times. And since OC is restricted ONLY by specific location in Kentucky, isn't it like asking for ID while I'm simply out walking (unarmed) in my front yard? ]

    OK, let me pick a scab here....I don't know all of the laws in KY, but I do know one law that applies in every state: It is against the law for a number of individuals, including felons, to posess a firearm. In many areas of the country, OC in the absence of a LE uniform or badge will draw yourself attention. Depending on the circumstances and judgement of a LEO, you most certainly could be approached and asked for ID.

    I've said before, there really is no reason to OC unless it is a requirement of your job (LE, armed security, actor in a cowboy movie, etc). If you seek to defend yourself with a firearm, obtain a CC permit and carry concealed. The element of surprise is always a good thing to have in your favor. If you choose to OC and therby draw attention to yourself, be prepared to identify yourself to a LEO without an attitude. You may otherwise find yourself in the clink. And if you do, you'll be a wealthy man
    There, that is now the truth.

    Honestly, DocT... I agree with the concealed part, it is my chosen method of carry.... some choose OC and for them, if it works, great.

    But, let's say you inadvertently "print," and there are no laws against that... or that OC is also allowed in your state, but you are "printing" and someone calls it in...

    As you are walking down the street, with no apparent reason (to you) as you are obeying the law in every regard.. Should you provide ID to a police officer on demand (or request)?

    (or should you just genuflect?)
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

  6. #80
    VIP Member
    Array PEF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,497

  7. #81
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Western Colorado
    Posts
    4,361
    Yup. Reruns ever so often.

  8. #82
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    81
    I don't see presenting ID as eroding my rights or something "bad." The Police have a responsibility not only to you (the gun owner) but also to the general public. They have to relatively quickly figure out if there is a threat to everyones general safety or not.

    When you have a CC permit or you OC in places where it's legal, you take on some very serious responsibilities and the LEO has to access whether or not you're a kook with a gun or a responsible, law abiding citizen. I see nothing wrong with this in the least.
    Ogre likes this.

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    I don't see presenting ID as eroding my rights or something "bad." The Police have a responsibility not only to you (the gun owner) but also to the general public. They have to relatively quickly figure out if there is a threat to everyones general safety or not.

    When you have a CC permit or you OC in places where it's legal, you take on some very serious responsibilities and the LEO has to access whether or not you're a kook with a gun or a responsible, law abiding citizen. I see nothing wrong with this in the least.
    Citizenship in and of itself is responsibility...

    I get your point about looking after the general welfare... But, if you are doing nothing illegal... gun or no gun, permit or no permit. Should you be subject to showing your ID anytime a policeman asks for it... without any probable cause?

    Why, thenm can't they just search your house, arbitrarily, because they heard there was a meth lab in the neighborhood... and, to protect the general welfare, they just want to come in your home and look around... make sure you're not the kook in the neighborhood makin' meth?
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

  10. #84
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    396
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    l find it interesting that people try to make it sound like if someone will give over ID they have no backbone.

    And, as stated, the officer can ask whatever he wants. He could ask me to strip naked and do the chicken dance if he wants, doesn't mean I'm going to do it.

    Is asking for ID an infringement? Absolutely not.
    What if he just wanted you to take your shirt off? What if it was the macarena instead?

    Like oakchas said, where do you draw the line?
    aus71383 likes this.

  11. #85
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Citizenship in and of itself is responsibility...

    I get your point about looking after the general welfare... But, if you are doing nothing illegal... gun or no gun, permit or no permit. Should you be subject to showing your ID anytime a policeman asks for it... without any probable cause?

    Why, thenm can't they just search your house, arbitrarily, because they heard there was a meth lab in the neighborhood... and, to protect the general welfare, they just want to come in your home and look around... make sure you're not the kook in the neighborhood makin' meth?
    This simple different between illegal search of your house and presenting your ID to an Officer is this.

    You're asking to present an ID when you are on PUBLIC property and someone raises concerns about your carrying a firearm. Since you are on PUBLIC land you do need to be socially responsible and remember that your rights are not the ONLY rights being looked at. Just as you have the right to carry a firearm in Public, the public also has the right to be reassured that they are being kept safe. The public has a right to expectation of safety in PUBLIC AREAS. Nobody is taking your firearm away from you in the public area, once the Police do an initial investigation and can eliminate you as a potential threat to the public, which takes maybe a minute or two, then everyone is satisfied.

    When you are on YOUR property then it's a whole new set of laws that are at play and you can tell the cop to go screw as you are NOT in a PUBLIC common property place but rather on your own property.

    If I don't carry a gun in Public and I see that you are carrying one I might become concerned for the well being of my family and others around me and I would expect the Police to verify that you're not a lunatic (as you don't have a tattoo on your forehead that reads "Not A Lunatic") and if they ask you for ID to verify that you are not a Lunatic and are obeying the laws then by all means continue of OC or CC.

    Knowing these things I have no issue of presenting my ID when I'm OC or CC in a public/common area because I know that others may be concerned about their welfare. I don't see one legitimate reason why showing my ID to a cop would be an issue. That CC permit is a permit after all. Just like my drivers license is a permit to drive a car and the Police are within their rights to ask me to present it as I'm driving on PUBLIC or "Common Area" roads. If I'm driving on my own property then I can tell the cop to go screw.

    This is why the "well why can't they just search my house" argument is entirely moot in this scenario.

    For this reason I have no issue whatsoever in presenting my ID to the Police when requested to do so.
    Ogre likes this.

  12. #86
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Nampa, Id.
    Posts
    403
    Quote Originally Posted by DocT65 View Post
    OK, let me pick a scab here....I don't know all of the laws in KY, but I do know one law that applies in every state: It is against the law for a number of individuals, including felons, to posess a firearm. In many areas of the country, OC in the absence of a LE uniform or badge will draw yourself attention. Depending on the circumstances and judgement of a LEO, you most certainly could be approached and asked for ID.

    I've said before, there really is no reason to OC unless it is a requirement of your job (LE, armed security, actor in a cowboy movie, etc). If you seek to defend yourself with a firearm, obtain a CC permit and carry concealed. The element of surprise is always a good thing to have in your favor. If you choose to OC and therby draw attention to yourself, be prepared to identify yourself to a LEO without an attitude. You may otherwise find yourself in the clink.
    Exactly why they CONCEAL CARRY!!! I'm not reading in the papers about all the felons arrested for open carry! Get a clue, Doc!

  13. #87
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,230
    If they ask and you say no and they do not push it no issue. If however without good cause to arrest you they demand it they are wrong. No madder how wrong anything is LEO will do as they please.
    If you are stopped for any reason and provide an ID there is a record of that stop. It could come back to haunt you even if you did nothing wrong.
    Case in point some years ago in part of town Known for drugs and prostitution. LEO were instructed to stop everyone they could between certain hours and check them out.
    Many on their way to work were stopped some many times. No problem you say.
    Along comes a reporter that gets a copy of the stop records. Next thing you know John xxx name shows up a list of suspected Customers of hookers on 27th street.
    It goes on to show he was stopped 3 time in a month in the same area. No mention that is was on the road to his job. John xxx will never clear his name he did nothing wrong.
    The police say so what the reporter does not care he got a pay check.
    There is no meaningless encounter with LEO anymore.
    I was stopped twice in that sting by the same officer, he assured me no record was kept of uneventful stops he lied.
    It is not as simple as you think.
    F350 likes this.

  14. #88
    Member Array 43hertz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    This simple different between illegal search of your house and presenting your ID to an Officer is this.

    You're asking to present an ID when you are on PUBLIC property and someone raises concerns about your carrying a firearm. Since you are on PUBLIC land you do need to be socially responsible and remember that your rights are not the ONLY rights being looked at. Just as you have the right to carry a firearm in Public, the public also has the right to be reassured that they are being kept safe. The public has a right to expectation of safety in PUBLIC AREAS. Nobody is taking your firearm away from you in the public area, once the Police do an initial investigation and can eliminate you as a potential threat to the public, which takes maybe a minute or two, then everyone is satisfied.

    When you are on YOUR property then it's a whole new set of laws that are at play and you can tell the cop to go screw as you are NOT in a PUBLIC common property place but rather on your own property.

    If I don't carry a gun in Public and I see that you are carrying one I might become concerned for the well being of my family and others around me and I would expect the Police to verify that you're not a lunatic (as you don't have a tattoo on your forehead that reads "Not A Lunatic") and if they ask you for ID to verify that you are not a Lunatic and are obeying the laws then by all means continue of OC or CC.

    Knowing these things I have no issue of presenting my ID when I'm OC or CC in a public/common area because I know that others may be concerned about their welfare. I don't see one legitimate reason why showing my ID to a cop would be an issue. That CC permit is a permit after all. Just like my drivers license is a permit to drive a car and the Police are within their rights to ask me to present it as I'm driving on PUBLIC or "Common Area" roads. If I'm driving on my own property then I can tell the cop to go screw.

    This is why the "well why can't they just search my house" argument is entirely moot in this scenario.

    For this reason I have no issue whatsoever in presenting my ID to the Police when requested to do so.
    Sorry, you're incorrect about much of this.

    Every time I've been asked to provide ID it's been on private property--yes, ATM sites are private property owned or at least leased by the bank/financial institution. Wanna know how refusing to cooperate with some (absolutely not all, but some) small town cops on the side of the road in backwater Missouri is gonna go? Problem is they don't have a sign on their head saying whether they're good LEO or not. I almost always choose to comply because any further delay costs me revenue, as I get paid by the successful resolution of each service ticket.

    The OP asked whether such stops are or are not an infringement on my rights.
    They absolutely are, as they cause me financial damage.

    Remember, I'm a middle aged man, white, if it matters (and in some towns it does, unfortunately, but usually to my benefit) in a marked van, in a uniform, not jackhammering into the vault.

    Gonna be a real stretch to claim any sort of RAS in that case, unless I've missed a string of incidents fitting that description.

    And yes, I lodge a complaint when I feel particularly egregiously inconvenienced. Zero appreciable results that I've ever heard about. I like 99.5% of LEO--work with them virtually every weekday.

  15. #89
    Member Array gooseman1991's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    216
    I see it as a minor inconvenience. They are just doing their job and trying to keep us safe. However I don't think anyone OCing illegally would do so in front of a LEO so I highly doubt they will catch anyone doing anything illegal, but again they are just trying to do their job.

    Goose
    "These days I go down to Wal-Mart and they sell 'em in the back.
    Some people wanna take 'em away, why don't you go bust them boys that's sellin' crack.
    Guns, whether Remingtons 'er Glocks.
    Come on man it ain't like I'm a slingin' 'em on the block." - Justin Moore

  16. #90
    Member Array Maxwell47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    362
    Oakchas,

    I believe in questioning authority also, but resisting it comes under the heading of "pick your battles" for me. As I originally stated, I'd definitely ask why and may say no to a Leo in many situations. But simply asking for my ID when he might actually have a valid reason, sure I'll present, and ask why. If he comes back with a BS answer I will get his ID info and report the incident.
    I never let schooling interfere with my education. Mark Twain

Page 6 of 17 FirstFirst ... 234567891016 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

can a cop randomly ask you for your id in denver colorado
,
can tn law seize your gun and demand to see your id if you have a ccp youtube
,

how does asking for id infringe voter rights

,
infringing on my rights. regarding police
,

is it an infringement of my rights to give my drivers license

,
is robbery infringement on another mans rights
,
minnesota request for id
,
minnesota request for id witness
,

my rights to produce identifaction in wv

,

request for id from leo

,

right to not produce identification

,
showing leo indiana handgun permit violation 4th amendment
Click on a term to search for related topics.