Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? - Page 8

Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

This is a discussion on Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by suntzu If you remember they got the guy in the "last" car that was searched....hmmmm...tells me they would have kept on going ...

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Thread: Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

  1. #106
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    If you remember they got the guy in the "last" car that was searched....hmmmm...tells me they would have kept on going until they found him or attorneys showed up.....all in all poor poor judgement. Again, the end does not justify the means
    This happened on my route home from work. I missed it by about 1 hour and work with one of the people who were part of the 19 cars stopped. The police basically showed up with a SWAT team and surrounded the cars at the intersection... There would not have been any additional cars to be searched. The guy said it was really scary, but more or less just a case of wrong place, wrong time and the police were very polite and professional after they cleared his car. They had a specific description of the suspect, so they didn't even need to search the cars. Everything was over in about 15 minutes.

    Edit: I want to clarify because the article has different information. The "search" of the vehicles of the people who did not match the description did not take place as reported, it was more like "is anybody else hiding in there." Also, they took about 2 hours to go through the suspect's vehicle, but the others were free to go much sooner.


  2. #107
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitchk20 View Post
    as a prior LEO in the military to ID someone you must have probable cause. i generally didnt bother people who were going about thier daily routine but would ID someone acting suspiciously or that my gut instinct told they were up to no good.
    Do I understand correctly that my rights now a governed by someones gut. What if they had a bad lunch I get the heck beat out of me and off to jail to cover it up because of a bad hot dog. That is why we have rights to protect us from bubbas gut feelings.
    By the way if you in the military you best produce ID when ask.

  3. #108
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    reductio ad absurdum

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    They made a decision to stop vehicles at an intersection based on reliable information which lead to PC that an armed bank robber was at that location and what do you know he was there!
    OK, so if that action is perfectly legal, then the following scenario would be also.

    Someone is kidnapped in a city. All escape routes are instantly blocked by the police. The police know the victim is still in the city. The police handcuff every resident of the city and search all their houses. Perfectly justified if the victim is found.

  4. #109
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    If I remember correctly, a hunch is not sufficient for detainment according to the scotus.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    OK, so if that action is perfectly legal, then the following scenario would be also.

    Someone is kidnapped in a city. All escape routes are instantly blocked by the police. The police know the victim is still in the city. The police handcuff every resident of the city and search all their houses. Perfectly justified if the victim is found.
    That’s like comparing apples to oranges! I don’t see any way that you can take an actual even can compare it to a fictional one.

  6. #111
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    OK, so if that action is perfectly legal, then the following scenario would be also.

    Someone is kidnapped in a city. All escape routes are instantly blocked by the police. The police know the victim is still in the city. The police handcuff every resident of the city and search all their houses. Perfectly justified if the victim is found.
    If they had the resources to accomplish that... We would be in a police state.

  7. #112
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Oakchas. Internment Camps for Japanese Americans was and still is a black eye on this country however once the initial furor over Pearl Harbor died down Japanese Americans were released and many joined the military and fought against the Germans in WW II.
    Yeah... 'course we couldn't trust 'em to fight the Pacific battles....

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I think, IMO, many are comparing a tricycle to a bulldozer in many cases. Yes there are issues that need to be resolved. Put legislation in place that clarifies what the laws, rules, regulations are so everyone understands them, police and OC'ers alike. Just like has been stated on here "When you ask someone to describe the color blue". In many places there is nothing on the books regarding OC so therefore it is left up to interpretation of both LE and the citizens and you know as well as I do both parties will take their interpretations to the outer limits.
    Sure... more legislation... I think the standard for "legislation" as regards guns is pretty simple and straightforward..
    It reads:

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Where, in that little nugget does it say, imply, infer, or otherwise obliquely determine; that those who do so will be subject to harassment by police? To being asked for ID..?

    In fact... The right to keep and bear arms in this country is NOT limited to citizens under the constitution, living here is the only requisite.

    Just in case you missed that...

    The right to keep and bear arms in this country is NOT limited to citizens under the constitution, living here is the only requisite.

    Source: US Citizenship and Immigration Services. Specifically, Question 51: Here

    As to tricycles into bulldozers... I would think that the people of NOLA in the immediate aftermath of Katrina saw the bulldozer.... And legislation to "fix it" shouldn't have been necessary... the Police, the Gov't, completely overstepped their bounds. But, I will say this, the open carrying thugs that were looting and pillaging.... well, they weren't disarmed... In fact, they went largely ignored... but the law abiding citizens... They had to give up their guns, at gunpoint.


    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Internment camps for OC'ers? With there luck someone would still probably call in on them.

    Hee hee hee... not even funny.

    Sorry, Tac... on this one, we must disagree...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  8. #113
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitchk20 View Post
    as a prior LEO in the military to ID someone you must have probable cause. i generally didnt bother people who were going about thier daily routine but would ID someone acting suspiciously or that my gut instinct told they were up to no good.
    So you can articulate your gut how????

  9. #114
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    If I remember correctly, a hunch is not sufficient for detainment according to the scotus.
    I guess it is now.
    So it is ok to demand I produce and ID but don't you dare ask an Undocumented citizen to do so.
    This is getting so confusing.
    We don't need a Supreme Court LEO will just make it up as they go.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxwell47 View Post
    Ask for a discussion on blue and you get every color in the rainbow.

    If asked professionally for ID, produce and ask why.
    If asked to search your vehicle ask why. Whether or not you premit it is up to you but both of these happen in what is essentially public so there is a chance the LEO is just doing their job. And "infringing" my rights or not it is no skin off of my nose to just produce ID. Geez. Get over it folks.

    If asked to come into my house the answer is no. That is not a public place.

    In my opinion it is pretty straight forward.
    Why not allow them in your house if you not doing anything wrong what is the big deal. The officer is just doing his job. And if you refuse to allow them in you must be up to something.
    Where does it stop?
    The problem is not me refusing to produce an ID. The problem is the Officer breaking the law trying to force me to. I am not the bad guy here he is.

  11. #116
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Yeah... 'course we couldn't trust 'em to fight the Pacific battles....
    Actually it was a hold over from the Civil War; the US government did not want "brother fighting brother" which is one reason my dad, first generation German was not sent to fight in Europe.
    There were many Japanese in the Pacific, they were trusted to be interpreters of Japanese POWs, communications intercepts and other highly sensitive intelligence work requiring native speaker knowlege of Japanese.
    Hopyard and 64zebra like this.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    So you can articulate your gut how????
    Yes, sometimes if not always, you know what is bothering you and making you feel uneasy, but you do
    have to be able to articulate what that is.

    This is discussed at some length in the book, "The Gift of Fear." An excellent read I recommend to all.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #118
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    If police have legitimate probably cause, asking to see your ID is no big deal.

    Would you rather they cuff you and bring you to the station to verify your ID?

  14. #119
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    So it is ok to demand I produce and ID but don't you dare ask an Undocumented citizen to do so.
    Valid question.

  15. #120
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    It is so blatantly clear to now see how so many will lock step as each rationalizes their self preservation as a individual.
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

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