Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

This is a discussion on Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I CC and OC on a daily basis depending on what I'm doing that day. I have only been approached a few times by LEO's ...

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Thread: Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

  1. #1
    Member Array R.C.BG.380's Avatar
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    Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

    I CC and OC on a daily basis depending on what I'm doing that day. I have only been approached a few times by LEO's and asked to produce an ID and HCP. I was in no way insulted nor did it halt my taskings for the day. I am kind of getting tired of people saying it is their right not to produce an ID when asked by a LEO. I'm trying to get clarity on why people take such a stand on that soap box. Especially when OC'ing you should be prepared to talk to at least one LEO, IMMHO if you want to keep your 2a rights be compliant with the LEO's and get on with your day, no need to quote the constitution or wine bout you rights to someone that knows the laws, and is just trying to keep the peace and do their job.
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    VIP Member Array BigJon10125's Avatar
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    A lot of points in your post, but the one that jumps out at me is that many police officers do not know the law. Lawyers and judges know the laws. That is not to say the police do not know them, but we often hear about it being the latter and not the former. That being said I do not think identifying oneself is a violation of rights. Now if I had to produce papers saying that I was a citizen and here legally? Maybe then, but otherwise IMO it is not a violation of rights.
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    BigJon


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    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    If you walk out of your job at a pharmaceutical manufacturer should law enforcement be able to do a drug test on you as you leave the parking lot just because of where you work?
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    Member Array R.C.BG.380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon10125 View Post
    A lot of points in your post, but the one that jumps out at me is that many police officers do not know the law. Lawyers and judges know the laws. That is not to say the police do not know them, but we often hear about it being the latter and not the former. That being said I do not think identifying oneself is a violation of rights. Now if I had to produce papers saying that I was a citizen and here legally? Maybe then, but otherwise IMO it is not a violation of rights.
    Well put, I was only posting this because of a baiting post i had read that the poster had said it was his right not to produce ID that may be but to avoid a confrontation with the LEO all he had to do was show that he was legally carrying and that would most likely been the end of the encounter.

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    Ex Member Array dbglock's Avatar
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    Police can't legally ask anybody for any kind of ID without probable cause. OC, sure, but CC? Unless you're printing and they want to confirm your CCP, it's an illegal request.

    AZ tried to circumvent this but Feds won't let 'em.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    If you walk out of your job at a pharmaceutical manufacturer should law enforcement be able to do a drug test on you as you leave the parking lot just because of where you work?
    That is an irrelevant point; this has to do with whether or not you should make a mountain outta a mole hill. I am simply saying that if asked for your ID they are just doing their jobs. For the most part LEO’s will not even approach you unless a MWAG call or a complaint has been made. At that point they are just doing their job.
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    If it was me, I would not necessarily choose to take a stand on this issue either, but there IS something to think about here. The erosion of people's right to do ANYTHING that they've ALWAYS had a right to do begins with identification and regulation.

    In many cases a right that disappears is taken from us in tiny increments that begin with the authorities taking power over things they have no right to have power over. They just step in and assume power over that thing, and if no one protests they establish a precedent for having that much power over that thing. Then they take another tiny increment and again no one protests, then they've established a new threshold for the precedent. This can go on for decades with no one noticing how far that right has eroded until all of a sudden we realize we've lost that right completely. Firearms is only one area where we see this kind of thing. The education of our children is another.

    Once again, I'm not saying that this is one of the things we should always choose to argue over. I just think we shouldn't blow off considering issues like this just because we have a general respect for Law Enforcement Officers. I have that respect, and always treat LEO's with respect and deference (whether they deserve it in the particular case or not). For me it is respect for the position without regard to whether the individual is the most shining example of the profession.

    Even with that respect, though, I am always thinking in the back of my mind about the fact that authorities will take as much power over us as we will grant them, even when the law does not grant them that power.

    Once again, I'm not saying you should change what you do in those cases. Just make sure you decide with your eyes open and not just because you have no reason NOT to comply.

    Just sayin'.

  9. #8
    Member Array R.C.BG.380's Avatar
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    GraySkies, I could not agree with you more

    "Once again, I'm not saying that this is one of the things we should always choose to argue over. I just think we shouldn't blow off considering issues like this just because we have a general respect for Law Enforcement Officers. I have that respect, and always treat LEO's with respect and deference (whether they deserve it in the particular case or not). For me it is respect for the position without regard to whether the individual is the most shining example of the profession."

    I am only saying that if in these circumstances if you just comply with the simple request that no fuss has to be made, and everyone can go about their business

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    Member Array Aimless's Avatar
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    Maybe this falls under the give an inch take a mile way of thinking.Is it a big deal for an officer to demand an id without cause?Prob not,how bout to search a vehicle,or perhaps have a look thru ur home.IMO far to many people are ready to just go with the flow,not make a hassle.After all its just one little thing,we have plenty of rights and prob don't need them all anyways. Gray Skies response is about perfect for this question,I lack the edumacation to put it like that.
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  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.C.BG.380 View Post
    Well put, I was only posting this because of a baiting post i had read that the poster had said it was his right not to produce ID that may be but to avoid a confrontation with the LEO all he had to do was show that he was legally carrying and that would most likely been the end of the encounter.
    This is a slippery slope.

    First error: It is NOT a 2A issue.

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    Constitutional law is interpreted by people wearing black robes.
    These interpretations often become adopted law by the states...sometimes not.

    Other than standing on the 4th amendment, a OC person risks a lot if they refuse to comply. Here's why:

    The officer (IF) called to investigate based on a complaint; MUST fulfill his duty to investigate.
    The scope of that investigation is where it gets sticky.

    The words "reasonable" and "un-reasonable" as read in the 4th amendment cross a fine line and remains open to interpretation.

    So when does one NOT need to show ID?

    Scenario: You are walking down the road with your pistol in full view.
    The officer walks up on you and asks you to produce your permit AND some form of secondary ID.

    It has been held in the courts this scenario does not meet the "probable cause" scenario and does indeed violate your 4th amendment right.

    Those who refuse to show ID; I applaud for standing up and doing what they can via publicity if they are arrested or even detained.

    One might ask "why not show your ID, avoid the hassle and go about your business?"

    Answer: As we voluntarily water down our rights by allowing our rights to be manipulated; we have essentially perpetrated a "self Amendment" upon what already exists. Basically "give 'em an inch and they will take a mile" syndrome.

    Sadly, unless we are prepared to hire attorneys, spend money, maybe get locked up for a period of time, waste our own time..most of us bow to the authority on scene; and that is tragic.

    So; I give a a pretty good chunk of my money to the organizations who do have the time, will and passion to fight for me in the highest courts in the land.
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

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    There is a clear distinction between "identifying" oneself, and producting identification. If an LEO asks you to identify yourself, a simple statement of "I am 'Whatever your name is'" is sufficient.

    This is NOT a "papers" country, and no one is required to carry identification for general purposes. You may be required to provide a license/permit for certain activities that require one, such as a drivers license if operating a vehicle or concealed carry license if carrying a concealed firearm.

    As for the OP's case, if in TN a license/permit is required to OC or CC, then the easiest resolution is to produce that license/permit as the law requires and be on his way. If OC is legal, and the state requires no license/pernmit to do so, unless the statutes specifically require someone OC'ing to carry identification, there is no need to produce any identificcation.

    It really becomes a personal matter of how much intrusion you want in your life. And how far one might wish to press the issue with the LEO who requests ID. He may be willing to be educated; then again, he may wish to educate you on booking procedures--whether rightly or wrongly.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.C.BG.380 View Post
    That is an irrelevant point; this has to do with whether or not you should make a mountain outta a mole hill. I am simply saying that if asked for your ID they are just doing their jobs. For the most part LEO’s will not even approach you unless a MWAG call or a complaint has been made. At that point they are just doing their job.
    If your original post you made no mention of law enforcement receiving a man with a gun call with that you are correct, they are doing their job of investigating. My point is that if you are engaged in a totally legal activity and not doing anything to draw attention to yourself, why should there be any interaction at all with law enforcement?

    If they get a call for a man with a gun and they see you, walking down the sidewalk open carrying along with carrying a grocery bag and your family walking by you what is the reason to carry on the investigation if you are obviously not a threat?

    I ask strictly for the purpose of discussion, I never have had a problem with providing ID when asked but it does give one reason to inquire as to why a totally legal act is justification to take up the time of a officer of the law.


    What next, reporting someone looking in shop windows in the middle of the day while walking down main street because they "may" be thinking about robbery?

    I just wish that common sense really was common.

    If someone calls in with a man with a gun report the question should be asked by the 911 operator "what is he doing?", if it's just walking down the street with a holstered sidearm then they need to be educated by that 911 operator that the action they are seeing is totally legal. (Of course based on state and local laws)

    Not trying to say you're wrong in any way, just providing food for thought.
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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    What says I can't OC without carrying any ID at all? There are no laws, to my knowledge, requiring Americans or Kentuckians to carry identification at all times. And since OC is restricted ONLY by specific location in Kentucky, isn't it like asking for ID while I'm simply out walking (unarmed) in my front yard?

    "Your papers please!"
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    Member Array Maxwell47's Avatar
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    Ask for a discussion on blue and you get every color in the rainbow.

    If asked professionally for ID, produce and ask why.
    If asked to search your vehicle ask why. Whether or not you premit it is up to you but both of these happen in what is essentially public so there is a chance the LEO is just doing their job. And "infringing" my rights or not it is no skin off of my nose to just produce ID. Geez. Get over it folks.

    If asked to come into my house the answer is no. That is not a public place.

    In my opinion it is pretty straight forward.
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  16. #15
    Member Array R.C.BG.380's Avatar
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    RGR, I never thought about it as eroding our rights, and thank you. I am trying to generate discussion on the subject.

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