OC Baiting: Two Edged Sword?

This is a discussion on OC Baiting: Two Edged Sword? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In WA there is case law established that OC, as long as it stays in the holster, on your belt, etc. is NOT a violation ...

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Thread: OC Baiting: Two Edged Sword?

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    In WA there is case law established that OC, as long as it stays in the holster, on your belt, etc. is NOT a violation of anything as long as you are otherwise not restricted from possessing a firearm. No terror to the public or public nuisance or anything like that. Do all of the LEO know this? No, but more and more are becoming educated.

    As to CA, while in the short term the OC demonstrators may have made things difficult for residents, the new even more restrictive laws that the CA legislature passed may have just shot themselves in the foot. The restrictive "may issue" nature of the populous counties was upheld by the courts as not restricting 2A rights because OC was legal, and therefore another method of exercising the right to bear arms was available. Now that no OC is allowed, they should be forced to change to "shall issue". It just may take some time in the courts.
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    Here's hoping!
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbglock View Post
    I would argue against that point. I don't consider NC an OC-friendly state, I consider it an OC-possible state, because while we have no laws against OC, we also don't have any laws in favor of it. It just isn't mentioned and as you said if one person complains an OC'er can be thrown over the hood of his car and handcuffed. That actually happened in Cary to a member of this forum who reported it here. It depends a lot on whether you're OC'ing in the boonies or in a metro area.
    I grew up in NC, in Mecklenburg County outside of the CLT city limits. I used to always--as a teen--throw my rifle over my shoulder and go shooting in the woods across the highway. I often had to wait for the cars to clear, often a county mounty or two. Not once did one of them ever stop to ask me for ID or about the firearm. I doubt I could do that today.

    As for CC'ing in NC, there are so many limitations and prohabitions that I don't bother to carry when I visit there. Just last Friday we ate at a restaurant in Raleigh that, like most decent restaurants, served alcohol, so no carrying allowed. Right after we left, the LEOs had a shootout in the parking lot, killing the suspect. All the stores and restaurants were locked down for a couple of hours. It would have been nice to be armed if I had still been there, but alas it is forbidden to carry in the restaurants.

    NC is far from gun friendly in comparison to many other states.
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  5. #19
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    There is a difference between OC'ing and OC baiting. Most OC'er go about their business not looking for confrontation, they don't have video camera's running and voice recorders running. If stopped they co-operate with the LEO involved. The baiters go about looking for a confrontation, their biggest concern is if they can get it posted on you tube before someone beats them to it. Truth be told, they probably don't care about the 2A, they just want their 30 seconds of you tube fame.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    there is a difference between oc'ing and oc baiting. Most oc'er go about their business not looking for confrontation, they don't have video camera's running and voice recorders running. If stopped they co-operate with the leo involved. The baiters go about looking for a confrontation, their biggest concern is if they can get it posted on you tube before someone beats them to it. Truth be told, they probably don't care about the 2a, they just want their 30 seconds of you tube fame.
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  7. #21
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    Let's say I go about my business and open carry, nothing happens for years then one day I get stopped and questioned. Fine, I move on and the next day, same thing... this goes on for weeks, months, to the point it's just annoying. I'm not doing anything different than I had been for years, maybe someone new moved in, maybe a change in law enforcement, I don't know or really care.

    If I start bringing a video camera/voice recorder am I now baiting?

    I don't think so, and who's to say that's not what some of these YouTube videos are there to demonstrate? Maybe they are tired of being harassed for no reason and see this as a way to make the situation known so action can be taken.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Bender View Post
    Let's say I go about my business and open carry, nothing happens for years then one day I get stopped and questioned. Fine, I move on and the next day, same thing... this goes on for weeks, months, to the point it's just annoying. I'm not doing anything different than I had been for years, maybe someone new moved in, maybe a change in law enforcement, I don't know or really care.

    If I start bringing a video camera/voice recorder am I now baiting?

    I don't think so, and who's to say that's not what some of these YouTube videos are there to demonstrate? Maybe they are tired of being harassed for no reason and see this as a way to make the situation known so action can be taken.
    At some point it becomes harassment, talk to your lawyer if you want something done about it... posting a you tube video isn't going to alleviate your situation.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    It will be interesting to get a perspective from the California contingent here.
    Well, here's my perspective. It used to be legal here until recently. Strangely enough, it became illegal seemingly moments after a big OC gathering.

    From the article:

    Supporters of the "open carry movement" are proving to be their own worst enemies. In their high-profile display of weaponry, they have led many Californians to question the sanity of a law that allows people to openly carry unloaded handguns in public places.

    They certainly caught the attention of the California Assembly, which voted 46-30 this week for legislation by Lori Saldaña, D-San Diego, to repeal the open carry law that has been on the books for four decades.

    Saldaña introduced AB1934 after several dozen gun-packing demonstrators frightened beachgoers in San Diego last year. She regarded the flaunting of weaponry as an act of intimidation - and a tragedy waiting to happen.
    Read more: 'Open carry' proponents forced the issue - SFGate

    So yeah, if you take an issue to a place full of sheep that isn't a normally practiced right, more or less "shocking" the uneducated then you're going to have problems because there are places that make laws based on feelings rather than common sense. I cannot open carry now other than on my own property, not that I would have a use for carrying an empty firearm but that's not the point; it's a freedom lost.
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  10. #24
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    Re: OC Baiting: Two Edged Sword?

    I personally think those who are baiting would br better served by trying to organize some sort of 'class' whether put on by them or in conjunction with LE to educate the people of the area (and even some officers) on the legality of OC which could reduce the amount of MWAG calls, therefore reducing LE having to 'waste' their time on a law abiding citizen.
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  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    I personally think those who are baiting would br better served by trying to organize some sort of 'class' whether put on by them or in conjunction with LE to educate the people of the area (and even some officers) on the legality of OC which could reduce the amount of MWAG calls, therefore reducing LE having to 'waste' their time on a law abiding citizen.
    Not sure that would really work. The audience you would get interest from for the class would not be the people who need to be made aware of the laws or guns in general. The people you would want to reach would not be interested in showing up to a class about evil scary guns.
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Bender View Post
    Let's say I go about my business and open carry, nothing happens for years then one day I get stopped and questioned. Fine, I move on and the next day, same thing... this goes on for weeks, months, to the point it's just annoying. I'm not doing anything different than I had been for years, maybe someone new moved in, maybe a change in law enforcement, I don't know or really care.

    If I start bringing a video camera/voice recorder am I now baiting?

    I don't think so, and who's to say that's not what some of these YouTube videos are there to demonstrate? Maybe they are tired of being harassed for no reason and see this as a way to make the situation known so action can be taken.
    With the corrupt liberal system and supreme court, I would leave well enough alone. They seem to like to pass unconstitutional laws these days.. However If they took away conceal carry in my state and all I could do is open carry, I would.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    QFT.

    If it's important to you to "exercise" your rights, by all means OC. Only if that's truly your carry method of choice. But, don't make it a you tube production. Just do it. Defend your rights to privacy as well, if you can, legally. But don't show me the video.

    Video productions of folks open carrying, just to prove a point; is as stupid to me as permit holders wearing badges, or sashes, or caps, or lapel pins, or Tshirts. Both make you appear stupid, IMO.

    LEO has enough heartache in doing his job.... He doesn't need the aggravation. Some people are scared of guns. Some will report seeing a man with one.

    The poor LEO is duty bound to investigate. His time is better spent catching speeders, red light runners and even jay walkers... than it is dealing with a person who is violating the norms of society, even if breaking no law.

    If you want to win the hearts and minds of the antis, do it with reasonable discourse, one on one... Or, get a parade permit and have an OC parade... handing out flyers on why the Second amendment is important...

    But, tell me, who walks around either with a camera crew, or carrying a video recording device without having something to prove or some desire to call attention to themselves? With or without a gun? You don't see 'em doing it without a gun, do you? There'd be nothing to see there, would there?

    The problem is not so much LEO, as it is the people... the people who have a concern about a man with a gun... frankly, they're more likely to see the gun than they are the video camera. The people won't see the you tube video... you and I may, because it's posted here or on some other site... But the people who are scared of the guns won't see it unless it's in the news... And the media won't cover it... unless they can make the carrier look like the complete ashbin he's being.

    We do, as citizens; have a right... maybe even an obligation, to stand up for our rights... But, making a circus of it demeans the goal...
    I'm with you. Many people say we need to exercise our rights in order to preserve them. I agree with that. However, no big production is needed. My carrying openly (or concealed if that is my preference at that time) is me exercising my rights, and I haven't been "harassed" by anyone, at least up to now.

    If we go into it with the right attitude that it is just something I do to protect myself and my family, and I am courteous to the people I come in contact with, I am statistically almost assured that I won't have any problems, as evidenced by the fact that considering the number of people who carry, the number of cases of harassment are actually very few. Now, if I go into it with that attitude of "Hey, look at me! I've got a gun! And I have a video camera too! Come and get me! Come on, I dare you!" Well, then I think I can pretty accurately predict the outcome.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    Well, here's my perspective. It used to be legal here until recently. Strangely enough, it became illegal seemingly moments after a big OC gathering.

    From the article:



    Read more: 'Open carry' proponents forced the issue - SFGate

    So yeah, if you take an issue to a place full of sheep that isn't a normally practiced right, more or less "shocking" the uneducated then you're going to have problems because there are places that make laws based on feelings rather than common sense. I cannot open carry now other than on my own property, not that I would have a use for carrying an empty firearm but that's not the point; it's a freedom lost.
    In regards to the CA OC law, a statute that allows only unloaded OC needed to be repealed, as the law was useless to begin with.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    OldVet, I agree with you that it was useless as far as what would be considered a "normal" (if you will) OC practice and reason for doing so. However, when it was legal to OC here, albeit unloaded, I did find it handy while coming back from hunting and simply placing my .44 mag. in my shoulder holster for the ride home rather than having to lock it in a box somewhere.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    There is a difference between OC'ing and OC baiting. Most OC'er go about their business not looking for confrontation, they don't have video camera's running and voice recorders running. If stopped they co-operate with the LEO involved. The baiters go about looking for a confrontation, their biggest concern is if they can get it posted on you tube before someone beats them to it. Truth be told, they probably don't care about the 2A, they just want their 30 seconds of you tube fame.
    That latter part of your comment about wanting 'fame' and such, is why CA is now screwed. They asked for a confrontation, they got it, and ruined it for the rest of us who carry outside of city limits in the rural places (where nobody or even the LEO cared).
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