OC Baiting: Two Edged Sword? - Page 3

OC Baiting: Two Edged Sword?

This is a discussion on OC Baiting: Two Edged Sword? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; California just needed an excuse, it's not like it wasn't gonna happen anyway... Tapatalk - Helping people post from bathrooms since 2009....

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Thread: OC Baiting: Two Edged Sword?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Civil_Response's Avatar
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    Re: OC Baiting: Two Edged Sword?

    California just needed an excuse, it's not like it wasn't gonna happen anyway...

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  2. #32
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Cops use bait cars to catch car thieves
    Cops use fake Johns to bait hookers
    Cops use fake hookers to bait Johns
    Cops use fake buyers to bait drug dealers
    Cops use fake dealers to bait drug users
    Cops set up fake pawn shops to bait thieves

    I don't think I have heard about a bunch of innocent people getting caught in these "BAIT" operations. They only catch those predisposed to criminal activity.

    Yea there are some tools out to get their 15 min of U-Tube fame, but there are plenty of OCers just going about their normal lives when they get hassled and someone has a cell phone with video ready to catch the violation and post to U-Tune to bring heat on the cops.
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  3. #33
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    I should save my response to questions like this on my computer so I would not have to type it in every time.

    Rights Eroding I realize that it is your mission in life to to spread your message through the internet about how guns rights are being taken away, got it but I still don't see it happening. As I stated before I have seen guns rights do nothing but increase in my state unless something has happened that I have not heard or read about.

    The purpose of carrying a firearm is for self defense nothing more. A firearm is a tool nothing more. The folks in California I realize that if they did not have a permit could only carry an unloaded firearm which served absolutely no purpose for self defense so that only leaves carrying it to make a statement. I don't know how many discussions went on on this and other forums about the negative attention that it was getting and the battle cry was always the same "We will make them take notice" and they did, not in the way they wanted but they took notice and it cost them dearly. I truly hope something happens in a positive way for them.

    You have your opinion and I have mine. OC baiters as they have been called serve no useful purpose other than to bring attention to themselves and negative attention to gun owners in general.

    Dark Knight Shooting Response, Rocket Launcher Police test - YouTube

    Whether we like it or not this is an OC'er. He is representing us all. This type of stunt is what the public equates with gun ownership. Yes it is the extreme side of things however we are all judged by the lowest common denominator and this guy is pretty low. People, right or wrong, associate guns with violence, it is a fact of life increased by media, TV, movies and horrific criminal acts committed. So when someone sees a person carrying a firearm they may become concerned and call 911.

    Yes there needs to be more education on both sides of the coin. An officer responding should have the latitude to either contact the person or not to establish what is going on. Dispatchers should/could be better trained on what questions to ask when a call is received however in today's society all it would take is one event, one time for a dispatcher to tell a caller "Miss it is ok he is doing nothing illegal OC is legal in this state, no officer will be sent" and 5 minutes later what everyone thought was a legitimate OC'er turns into something else it will do more damage to gun ownership and gun laws in 30 seconds than decades of what was worked so hard for.

    I wish I still had the pic but shortly after CA banned OC of handguns the group then decided it would be a good time for an OC event with rifles to take place. In the photo is shows a group of people with long guns standing in front of a wal mart type store to show there support of the OC movement. I have been around, carried and used firearms my entire life but if I observed several guys with long guns in front of wally world I would certainly give them my full attention. Did this type act serve to increase awareness and further gun rights? Nope shortly after OC'ing of long guns was also banned.

    It has been admitted and discussed in videos and on this forum about how some would OC to get attention and want a confrontation with LE. Cheap handguns were carried because the poster knew that he ran the risk of having his firearm taken if charged. It was all a publicity stunt nothing more. They were going for the shock value but again this is what we are all judged by. It makes no difference how many safety classes for kids we teach, flyers we hand out for public awareness or show people that guns are not a horrible thing all it takes is one idiot to set back the whole process and turn whatever support we have into something else.
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    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  4. #34
    Distinguished Member Array Arborigine's Avatar
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    OC Baiters have done as much for 2A rights as the Westboro Baptist Church has done for Christianity.
    I don't always have nothing to say, but when I do, I post it on Facebook.

  5. #35
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    Aborigine. You are the damn man.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Mildly confused....

    If doing something is legal how can you really call it baiting....... Maybe we should call the so called "baiting" as training officers that do not understand/know the law.

    Maybe this sheriff should travel the country training other officers of the Constitutional right under the 2nd amendment...
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    There is a difference between OC'ing and OC baiting. Most OC'er go about their business not looking for confrontation, they don't have video camera's running and voice recorders running. If stopped they co-operate with the LEO involved. The baiters go about looking for a confrontation, their biggest concern is if they can get it posted on you tube before someone beats them to it. Truth be told, they probably don't care about the 2A, they just want their 30 seconds of you tube fame.
    You hit the nail on the head here. The difference between an OCer and an OC baiter usually just boils down to the attitude projected while carrying. The baiter is usually the guy walking around with a chip on his shoulder looking for attention. Also, I second the notion that many of these baiters don't care one iota about 2A rights. A lot of them are just trying to look tough and cool for their "friends" on YouTube. The following is just one example of this.

    A while back, I saw a video in which this guy was walking down the sidewalk OC baiting. He saw a police car approaching, seemingly becoming giddy at the thought of a confrontation with the LEO, but when the LEO turned into a parking lot and carried on with his business elsewhere, the guy's tone changed to being noticeably disappointed in not being stopped. I posted a comment, asking what his true intentions were and respectfully pointing out that not only was he making himself look bad, he made other carriers look bad too. Well, he promptly blocked me from commenting on videos on his channel, and my comment was deleted. Upon looking at his profile, I noticed that he is a self proclaimed advocate and defender of the 1st, 2nd, and 4th Amendments. I realize the 1A just refers to the government not infringing on our right to free speech, but I found it rather ironic that a "1A advocate" would be so quick to censor someone that didn't agree with him. Because of all that, I have a hard time believing his intentions with regard to 2A rights are sincere as well.

    EDIT: I believe the guy was carrying a rifle slung over his shoulder as well as his OC'ed pistol on his hip, though I'm not positive. I know he has several other videos in which he carried those just to prompt an MWAG call from someone and a subsequent police encounter.
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    Mildly confused....

    If doing something is legal how can you really call it baiting...
    It comes down to intent to provoke contact/confrontation.

    Those merely going about their business without such intent aren't, IMO by definition, baiters. Those who aren't, are.
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  9. #39
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    This reminds me of a conversation in my favorite movie (edited for language):

    Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong?
    The Dude: No you're not wrong.
    Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong?
    The Dude: You're not wrong Walter. You're just a jerk.
    Walter Sobchak: All right then.


    OC baiters are like Walter, they are within their rights but still jerks.
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  10. #40
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    Tacman's post was excellent.
    Aborigine's post was the tl;dr version

    I like both.

    I also like not having my rights restricted because some self-titled 2A crusader scared a bunch of people, because he either wanted fame or to be a martyr. Simple truth is that most people only recognize firearms as the tools of murders and oppressors, and associate their owners as such. Wandering around carrying something excessively noticeable, with the specific intention of inciting a police response, only reinforces that belief. I don't understand the logic of it.
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  11. #41
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK_Brian View Post
    Tacman's post was excellent.
    Aborigine's post was the tl;dr version

    I like both.

    I also like not having my rights restricted because some self-titled 2A crusader scared a bunch of people, because he either wanted fame or to be a martyr. Simple truth is that most people only recognize firearms as the tools of murders and oppressors, and associate their owners as such. Wandering around carrying something excessively noticeable, with the specific intention of inciting a police response, only reinforces that belief. I don't understand the logic of it.
    Me either. When I open carry it is specifically because I choose it as my preference. Since "most people only recognize firearms as the tools of murders and oppressors, and associate their owners as such" it is a perfect way for them to see legal and responsible open carry. I can understand the logic in that.
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  12. #42
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    Me either. When I open carry it is specifically because I choose it as my preference. Since "most people only recognize firearms as the tools of murders and oppressors, and associate their owners as such" it is a perfect way for them to see legal and responsible open carry. I can understand the logic in that.
    Agreed. The best thing we can do for ourselves is simply carry, and show we are capable of getting through our day without the guns jumping out of our holsters and shooting someone. We need to be courteous to the people we come in contact with, and show that we are just like them, except for the fact that we have decided to carry a firearm to aid in the defense of ourselves and our families.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Chief1297's Avatar
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    Not breaking the law is baiting. So a person traveling 35MPH in a 35MPH zone could be considered baiting as well. Intresting concept. What a world we live in.
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  14. #44
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief1297 View Post
    Not breaking the law is baiting. So a person traveling 35MPH in a 35MPH zone could be considered baiting as well. Intresting concept. What a world we live in.
    If that is your takeaway from this discussion then you have missed the point. The difference is attitude and intent. Any keen observer of human behavior knows that attitude and intent can (notice I said can, not always does) betray themselves in how a person acts.

  15. #45
    Member Array malexander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    I personally think those who are baiting would br better served by trying to organize some sort of 'class' whether put on by them or in conjunction with LE to educate the people of the area (and even some officers) on the legality of OC which could reduce the amount of MWAG calls, therefore reducing LE having to 'waste' their time on a law abiding citizen.


    A similar thing was done here recently in OKC.
    The local OC folks put a "program" together at alocal gun store for people (mainly business owners) to attend to explain what carrying was really about.
    I think the over all reception was pretty positive. The article was in this past Sunday's, Daily Oklahoman.

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