Just let it go...
Steve , you have your feelings about it and I have mine . I don't feel you are wrong just expressing my feelings . One thing I think we can be grateful for is that we both add another number to the head count of pro gunners .
Maybe sometime we may meet and heat up a few barrels , thanks for sharing your views , Kenneth
This thread reminds me of one thing that I read yesterday that struck me as interesting. Someone mentioned that one of the differences between gun rights supporters on the political right and left is your overall view of and the degree to which you support law enforcement.
Over the years, there were many instances where I came across a weapon on a traffic stop. Each case was different as the circumstances always varried. I have had instances where a wanted individual showed great care even while the weapon and he were wanted ...
... and I have had a case where I almost shot a mother of three in front of her kids and her husband when she very stupidly pointed a weapon in my direction (complicated story but no shots fired :smile:) ... and then all sorts of stops in between.
Some I took control of while on the stop, some I ran, some I didn't. I did what was reasonable for my safety and the safety of the public in every case and I violated no one's "rights" except as I could reasonably justify. There were times I took posession of a weapon(s) roadside, unloaded same, ran same as I also ran the driver / etc through VCIN and NCIC and in the end, returned both weapon and ammo and sent them on their way. Other times the exact same checks resulted in seizures of person(s) and article(s).
You have the rights as set forth in The Constitution, you have the right to keep and bear (own and carry) arms.
You do not however have the right to keep stolen arms nor bear the same.
If a convicted felon, you do not have the right to keep and bear arms.
If committing a violent felony at the time, you again do not have the right to keep and bear arms.
I as a uniformed LEO had rights and responsibilities as well. I was responsible for keeping my knowledge up to date on the laws and court decisions as well as keeping The Constitution (which is as much mine as yours) in mind. I also had a responsibilty to my family, my co-workers, my community, the public (including the driver / violator / etc) .... and to my self. I made a promise long ago to never let myself be ambushed or limit myself to a fair fight if I could have the upper hand.
In short, I did what was reasonable given circumstances and the time to argue it, if one was so inclined, was not on a roadside at 2am. There are courts set up for argument.
Life is a chance, it's no rehearsal ... this is the big show, the "main event" so to speak.
Take Care all ............. :smile:
A large part of where I take issue with this practice and concept is in the singling out of guns. My gun is a piece of personal property, much like my cell phone (similar price point) any any number of other items I have in my possession. In this regard, I object to my gun being singled out for "special" treatment and I take the stance that unless it is germane to the offense committed, it has no business even being up for discussion.Quote:
You have the rights as set forth in The Constitution, you have the right to keep and bear (own and carry) arms. You do not however have the right to keep stolen arms nor bear the same.
.... roadside at 2 am ain't the best place.
As to equating it to a "cell phone" or etc by "price point" .... surely you know that's not the reason. I have seen cell phones taken temporarily when the officer had reason to believe the holder was summoning "friends" to distract or hinder or otherwise obstruct the officer in their duties.
It also might benifit you to know that all officers are aware of disguised arms, arms meant to look like .... a "cell phone" for example .... so be careful there.
Most often, if he takes posession of the weapon for the duration of the stop it's not so much to run it as it is a personal safety issue. He may not even run it, but still somehow restrict your control of it.
In over 31 years and some many thousands of contacts ranging from motorist assist to traffic stops to felony arrests and all between .... I never had a complaint lodged in this reguard. I have had complaints that I was insensitive, that I was "rude" (whatever that means at any given moment), that I was prejudiced, that I was not helpful, that I cursed them (I did not) , that I illegally seized their radar detector, that I didn't have my hat on, that I talked to one truck's steering wheel holder "like he was a child or a dog" (I told the First Sgt that was a d**n lie, that I loved children and dogs and that in no way did I talk to him like I would either of them). I even had one lady complain that I commented on her butt unfavorably (I was talking about what I thought was the ugly butt end of the then new 2001 Impala and said "look at the butt on that thing" as this lady passed our table behind me at lunch, my buddies laughed and I turned to see .... and there she went .... hers looked OK actually .... but I was talking about the car outside the window backed up to the curb!).
I never ever had a complaint dealing with a firearm on a traffic stop.
I submit that it was because the person and I were in agreement that my actions were reasonable then. If it happens with you that you don't agree, if you wish to lodge a commplaint or even file suit .... that's OK. Lawyers like to eat too you know.
Just please don't put some officer in the position of having to consider shooting you.
I'm in S.C. and before i got my permit,i went thru a license check one night.My registration was in my console beside me,and so was my gun.It has to be in a closed compartment in S.C.The LEO went in and got my gun out, and ran the serial number,so yes they can,i'm guessing.It only took a min or 2,so it wasn't a problem to me.No such thing as a registered gun in S.C either.
Most states allow the cop to "hold" your gun for chicken sh.....er..officer safety, then they use the "open sight exception" to run the SN. I carry a 1911 style pistol and keep a piece of black tape over the SN requiring a cop to "move" the tape to see the SN; Arizona v. Hicks, 480 U.S. 321 (1987)....
Arizona v. Hicks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable "searches" and "seizures." The Court first ruled that when the police officer moved the stereo equipment to record the serial numbers, he conducted a Fourth Amendment "search." This search was unrelated to the initial reason the police were in Hicks's apartment—to search for weapons and the person who fired the bullet through the floor of the apartment.
Not sure how it will fly in court but if a cop ever removes the tape to run the SN of my gun we will find out!
Cops do not have the right to automatically seize your weapon without probable cause. Being brought to awareness of a weapon is not probable cause. Any officer that then wishes to infringe upon my rights and break the law is going to do so with a lawyer present. I've had officers try to pull this crap and nothing stops then faster than stating the following, "Sir, I understand your concern for safety. I will state I have no intention of touching my firearm in your presence, but I am under no legal obligation to let you seize it unless you can articulate a probably cause to do so. If you can not articulate such a cause and still wish to seize my property, I must kindly ask you call a supervisor first. While you are making that call to your supervisor, I am going to making a call to my legal counsel. My attorney will be present before any seizure is made by you, so we can have a nice wait for both your supervisor and my attorney to arrive."
Be polite, but firm. Behave calmly and state your intentions. I've never had a problem when I've done as described. Officers make mistakes as well and can legally do a LOT of things if you let them do so. Most do so out of a misguided sense of authoritative security concerns. Just understand that cops are under pressure in regards to personal safety in their line of duty than the average citizen.
I will say I do not know the exact laws in NC regarding the OP's situation, but I'm 99% positive that a cop can not seize your property for any reason. And a traffic stop for speeding is not probably cause for property seizure.
OP, I know your pain. I have had a similar run in two days ago. But my stop was pretextual from the get go.
I own my own PI and Security Agency in Florida, and we use Crown Vic's as our patrol units, all of them marked with the state authorized amber and green lights. My car is a slickback with dash and deck lights only. I use the vehicle on my personal time because its free advertising. I was on my way home with my kids from visiting my parents when my youngest gave me the dreaded plea for a bathroom stop. I got off the interstate and stopped at a Burger King and let her go inside to do her thing. I was parked under a flood light and I noticed two Hernando County Sheriff's Deputy's parked at the gas station next door. One of the Deputy's kept looking at my car as I sat there. When my daughter was done, we left and immediately after I passed them, they pulled behind me. As I got back onto the interstate, they lit me up and I pulled over.
The Deputy walks up to my window and tells me that he pulled me over for an obstructed tag because I have a smoked license plate cover. You can see through it from over 100 feet away, but it was just his excuse to stop me. He asks for my license and registration, but I only give him my license because my registration is in my glove box. He then asks me if I have any weapons in my car and I advised him I was carrying concealed, I had a rifle in the trunk, and my company Taser was in the glove box. He then told me to turn on my emergency lights so he could see what color they were. At this point, its 10:30pm, we are all tired because we have had a long day and I still had an hour left to drive. I just wanted to hurry through the stop, so I went ahead and turned them on even though I didn't have to. Sure enough, amber and green like the law permits. He then asks me why I have the lights and I informed him of my business and even provided him with my state license number. He asks if I have a CCW and I gave it to him. He explains to me that for officer safety reasons, he wanted me to get out of the car so he could remove my firearm and clear it. So I complied. Now, I am expecting for him to clear it, hold it and then continue with the stop. He tells me to get back in my car and he goes to run the serial number on my firearm.
At this point in time, he is now performing a search outside the purview of the stop, which was the obstructed license plate. I have a CCW, I own a Security and PI business, so there should be no reasonable suspicion for him to suspect my weapon was stolen. He comes back to my window and he tells me to open the trunk so he can check the serial number on my rifle. At this point, I had enough. I asked him how the serial number on my rifle has anything to do with my obstructed license plate, and he said he just needed to check the rifle to make sure it was stolen. I told him it wasn't going to happen. The Deputy now tells me that my stop will take longer if he cannot run the serial. I look at him and I tell him that this stop, which was already at 35 minutes, should not exceed a reasonable time that is required to complete the citation. The Deputy was upset and left to finish filling out the citation. He came back and returned my drivers license and CCW and had me sign the citation. He then handed me back my magazine and had me put it into my glove box, then he returned my firearm and said have a nice night. He never gave me the citation, and I never gave him my registration.
I'll be seeing him in 60 days. One of the lawyers I work for has advised me to file a complaint with the Department for the following reasons:
1. Using Officer Safety as a means to unlawfully seize a concealed weapon to perform a search without probable cause or reasonable suspicion
2. Detaining me for over 45 minutes for a non-moving traffic violation
3. For threatening to extend the length of my detention if I did not allow him to conduct a search of my rifle's serial number
4. Incorrectly citing a statute in order to effect a pretextual traffic stop
I'll let you know how it goes.
Happens in Fla as well. My buddy got pulled over recently, presented Dl and CCP and officer ran gun and then let him go.