What do you guys think about this video?

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  1. #91
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Sorry for the dbbl post by the way.

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  3. #92
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Scantily woman on the block example same as the crowbar guy. Same car circling numerous times is reasonable suspicion. Agree with all that.

    What I was referring to with where ive been where im going may be a local thing. I dont know. But on just a tail light out stop on a rural highway traveling thru the where ive been where am I going is likely to get a polite came from back there and going up this way for a while. Now if my not caring to grilled about where ive been or where im going because you pulled me over for a tail light out. Which you have no business asking me anyway in that circumstance works you into a unpleasant froth, well sorry. Cite me for the tail light. If its broke got no problem with that... arrest me?? Go ahead, good luck with that. My record is clean back to being a kid except for a couple of speeding tickets and one dui 22 years ago. Ill be out before the ink is dry on your report for arresting me for not answering those questions.
    A probable cause stop for a tail light and a Terry stop based on reasonable suspicion are two totally different circumstances. If I stop you for a tail light I may very well ask you where you're coming from/going to. You do not have to answer those questions and you certainly have the right tell me to pound sand. Those questions aren't relevant to the stop or to the investigation. However, if you are loitering about in an area with no apparent purpose or if you are repeatedly circling a block, then your refusal to answer those types of questions will add to my suspicion and will give me reason to detain you longer for investigative purposes.

    You must remember that criminal statute books are extremely thick. You have the right to remain silent and, more often than not, you are only required to identify yourself to police..nothing more. With that said, your failure to cooperate and answer simple, reasonable questions could land you in jail for something stupid like failure to update your driver's license or having an expired insurance card. People like to play games with police for many reasons: they want to be smart a**es, they try to exert rights that don't apply to the situation, they are guilty and think they will outsmart the officer, etc. Sometimes this behavior works in their favor. Fortunately, police have many more games with real consequences. More often than not police know your rights better than you do. Again, this isn't always the case, but it generally is.

  4. #93
    Member Array jrclen's Avatar
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    duplicate
    Shall not be infringed means - shall not be infringed.
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  5. #94
    Member Array jrclen's Avatar
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    Remember that quaint old saying "to protect and serve?"
    It has now become "to harrass and intimidate."
    Shall not be infringed means - shall not be infringed.
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  6. #95
    Member Array Grinder's Avatar
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    It's just a matter of time before the other sides starts emulating this. Walking around with ARs, making us look bad.

  7. #96
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrclen View Post
    Remember that quaint old saying "to protect and serve?"
    It has now become "to harrass and intimidate."
    You are greatly mistaken. "Protect and serve" wasn't an "old saying"; it was the LAPD motto and applies to nobody except the LAPD. Furthermore, police don't exist to "protect and serve" individuals...they exist to "protect and serve" society as a whole. Additionally, "serve" should not be interpereted like a waiter serves you at a restaurant. Police don't jump at your orders or your beck and call. Police are responsible for "serving" the state, the penal code, and the court system and are primarily responsible for enforcing laws no matter how petty or insignificant they seem to you. Timothy McVeigh was caught because a trooper "harassed" him about a license plate infraction and many criminals, including drug users, dealers, and gang members in your community, are taken off the streets daily due to "harassment". You have such a misguided understanding that it's almost comical.
    kb2wji likes this.

  8. #97
    Member Array jrclen's Avatar
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    Protect and Serve can be found on squad cars all over the country. End of conversation.
    Shall not be infringed means - shall not be infringed.
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  9. #98
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    A probable cause stop for a tail light and a Terry stop based on reasonable suspicion are two totally different circumstances. If I stop you for a tail light I may very well ask you where you're coming from/going to. You do not have to answer those questions and you certainly have the right tell me to pound sand. Those questions aren't relevant to the stop or to the investigation. However, if you are loitering about in an area with no apparent purpose or if you are repeatedly circling a block, then your refusal to answer those types of questions will add to my suspicion and will give me reason to detain you longer for investigative purposes.

    You must remember that criminal statute books are extremely thick. You have the right to remain silent and, more often than not, you are only required to identify yourself to police..nothing more. With that said, your failure to cooperate and answer simple, reasonable questions could land you in jail for something stupid like failure to update your driver's license or having an expired insurance card. People like to play games with police for many reasons: they want to be smart a**es, they try to exert rights that don't apply to the situation, they are guilty and think they will outsmart the officer, etc. Sometimes this behavior works in their favor. Fortunately, police have many more games with real consequences. More often than not police know your rights better than you do. Again, this isn't always the case, but it generally is.
    I agreed with you about your scenarios. And I dont want to get into a peeing contest with you about your tools to try to push me to answer things you would have no right to ask but might we stay in the realm of reality here?

    If I had an expired license plate insurance card something petty like that and a clean record, havent done anything wrong except in your eyes that I didnt answer some ridiculous question you had no buisness asking in the first place we both know you are not going to take me to jail. Youll write me a ticket and Ill be on my way. You could arrest but over a traffic violation like a expired plate if you do that often at all your chief will be down you throat. Some of us arent stupid and for all you know may have at one time done the job your doing and just dont advertise it. And know the ropes. Especially in KY.

    Since we live in the same state you might have chance to pull me over sometime for some minor reason. If you do I will give you whatever Id you want. Tell you im carrying and give you every courtesy even to getting off the road so you dont have to be near traffic if at all possible because I value your safety. Ill answer anything you want thats remotely relevant. Chat with you about fishing if you want. I wont be guilty of anything other maybe speeding a little because I dont rob deal drugs etc etc.
    Depending on your attitude dealing with me I might even tell you where ive come from and where im going. Heck I might let you search my car if Im in a car and not on a bike.
    Get up on your badge and start riding it around like a magic carpet trying to intimidate me for the sake of proving how hard you are, and we both know there are a few officers like that, then ill still be courteous to you but where ive come from and where im going youlll have to check your offical LE crystal ball for. Want to arrest me in the state of Ky for a expired licence plate and jail me instead of writing a citation which is SOP and explain it to your commanding officer and the judge in court. Have at it.
    Now you in this discussion im using in a generic sense. For all I know you are the nicest LEO in the state. Some are hard heads with something to prove and all im saying is I aint the one to prove it with by asking me what size underwear i have on where ive come from where im going or what my wifes bra size is.

  10. #99
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    I agreed with you about your scenarios. And I dont want to get into a peeing contest with you about your tools to try to push me to answer things you would have no right to ask but might we stay in the realm of reality here?

    If I had an expired license plate insurance card something petty like that and a clean record, havent done anything wrong except in your eyes that I didnt answer some ridiculous question you had no buisness asking in the first place we both know you are not going to take me to jail. Youll write me a ticket and Ill be on my way. You could arrest but over a traffic violation like a expired plate if you do that often at all your chief will be down you throat. Some of us arent stupid and for all you know may have at one time done the job your doing and just dont advertise it. And know the ropes. Especially in KY.

    Since we live in the same state you might have chance to pull me over sometime for some minor reason. If you do I will give you whatever Id you want. Tell you im carrying and give you every courtesy even to getting off the road so you dont have to be near traffic if at all possible because I value your safety. Ill answer anything you want thats remotely relevant. Chat with you about fishing if you want. I wont be guilty of anything other maybe speeding a little because I dont rob deal drugs etc etc.
    Depending on your attitude dealing with me I might even tell you where ive come from and where im going. Heck I might let you search my car if Im in a car and not on a bike.
    Get up on your badge and start riding it around like a magic carpet trying to intimidate me for the sake of proving how hard you are, and we both know there are a few officers like that, then ill still be courteous to you but where ive come from and where im going youlll have to check your offical LE crystal ball for. Want to arrest me in the state of Ky for a expired licence plate and jail me instead of writing a citation which is SOP and explain it to your commanding officer and the judge in court. Have at it.
    Now you in this discussion im using in a generic sense. For all I know you are the nicest LEO in the state. Some are hard heads with something to prove and all im saying is I aint the one to prove it with by asking me what size underwear i have on where ive come from where im going or what my wifes bra size is.
    I agree with the majority of your post. I didn't mean to insinuate that I would arrest on routine stops because the driver refused to answer my questions...most of the questions are simply small talk anyway and, as I've said, have no bearing on the investigation. I don't know any officers who get off by "harassing" law abiding citizens over traffic violations. However, if I think additional suspicious or criminal behavior is being hidden from me you better believe I would arrest for an expired insurance card or for failure to update a drivers license. I've also arrested for minor infractions because the driver was an a$$hole from the get go without provocation and essentially challenged me to do it...challenge accepted. My Chief never sees our traffic citations and no commanding officer can tell me I cannot enforce a valid state statute the way I see fit. Expired plates aren't arrestable unless I believe the offender won't appear in court, but many other insignificant charges are arrestable.

    You keep mentioning that police don't have the right to ask you x, y, or z. This is not correct. If I make a stop I have the right to ask you anything I want. I can ask you where you came from, where you're going, how much you've had to drink, what your fifth grade math teacher's name was, or where you get your haircut. You also have the right not to answer, but that doesn't mean the question was invalid. If you are wandering around an apartment complex with no apparent purpose then you do have to tell me where you are going and who you are there to visit. If you don't then you will be arrested for trespassing.

    As I tried to explain to the other poster, my job is to arrest real criminals and take them off the street. Doing that involves investigating a lot of people until I find the right one. Sometimes innocent people are suspicious and, if they are not engaged in criminal activity, then they are released after a short investigation. If they don't want to cooperate and choose to go down the hard road then I can assure you I will win. I know my limitations and what I can and can't do legally. I don't engage in confrontations I can't win and I don't make threats I can't back up.

    Unfortunately the Constitution and rights in general are often misinterpretated. People think they can't be stopped or detained by the police and they think the U.S. is a free country. It's not. We do have many freedoms, but there are still laws, rules, and regulations that must be followed and police are responsible for their enforcement. The Supreme Court has decided this and created probable cause and reasonable suspicion. The whole criminal justice system is based on reasonableness and if I can articulate reasonable reasons for doing what I did then I will win every time.

  11. #100
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrclen View Post
    Protect and Serve can be found on squad cars all over the country. End of conversation.
    It was created by the LAPD and it only applies to those departments that adopt it as department policy. It is not on my vehicle nor any in my immediate area.

    There is a difference between being a public servant and providing a public service. I serve no one and will not be treated as a servant. I provide a service to the community and to the court system. That service often involves citing or arresting those who think I serve them. My job is not to protect and serve YOU it is to protect and serve the public as a whole.

    You really need to do some research on law enforcement because, as I said, you have been seriously misguided somewhere along the way.

  12. #101
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    The guy wasn't randomly looking for cops to approach. It was his girlfriend that got pulled over, right? Obviously, he was prepared for the inevitable confrontation with the police. You may not like his methods, but the law is the law. If he didn't do anything illegal, why is the cop even talking to him? Why ask for his ID? "We need to make sure you're not a felon" That's a joke.

  13. #102
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerranger View Post
    If the guy in the video was just walking by with a gun he was not a problem for the cop. When he became a danger is when he approached and became part of the traffic stop. DR
    As soon as the LEO addressed him, he followed the officer's commands and backed off. He didn't interfere or become part of the traffic stop. The cop kept saying "you walked onto my scene". It's a public street, the man didn't impede the officer in any way. I'm not a fan of these YouTube videos, but the police were wrong with the way they handled this. If he broke the law arrest him. If not, let him go. Don't try and intimidate him into giving you ID.

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb2wji View Post
    Quite simply, he IS breaking the law. I'll ask for "papers" out of courtesy. Otherwise, he'll be booked as John Doe.
    what law did he break?

  15. #104
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUZZ View Post
    I'm all for defending our rights. But men and women who wander around, openly armed, and carrying rolling video cameras are looking for an encounter. For a political statement, for youtube fame, whatever. Its stupid. Its a waste of officers time. Its all over the internet and it inspires stupidity in others.

    How hard is it, and how much of an inconvenience is it to show your ID to a police officer upon request? Its not a violation of your rights. Segregation is a violation of your rights. Being held without trial is a violation of your rights. Not getting a fair trial is a violation of your rights. Showing your ID, even when not legally required to, is not.

    I've been asked for ID before for no other reason that a police officer wanted to confirm my legal ability to carry a firearm. I handed it over. a minute or so later, I got it back with a 'thank you for your cooperation and have a nice day'. How hard was that? It wasn't. It didn't ruin my day. It didn't make me late for anything. It was out of professional respect that I complied. That, and a wish for not prolonging the situation and/or making it worse.

    Stop with the 'I'm not required to show you ID officer. Statute blah blah blah. What am I doing wrong officer? Why are you asking for ID officer? Am I being detained officer?' Just shut up, show your ID and be on your way.
    You CANNOT be serious!? It's only a waste of the police officer's time if he chooses to follow somebody doing nothing wrong, then try to intimidate that person into showing ID. I ALWAYS cooperate with police, but the more I hear the responses to these type videos, the less inclined I am to just submit when doing nothing wrong. SHUT UP and SHOW YOUR ID? Really? In America? WOW.

  16. #105
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    I agree with most of your post. The officer should have detained the individual immediately instead of letting him go and then re-initiating the contact afterward. However, I disagree on two points. If a person introduces themself into my investigation then I most certainly have the right to detain them and demand identification. They don't have to answer my questions, such as where did you come from or where are you going, but if they don't cooperate with me and answer those questions then I will make the contact as unpleasant as possible by arresting/citing when I wouldn't have otherwise. Second, you do not have to be standing at a door with a crowbar in order to meet reasonable suspicion. A scantily dressed woman remaining on the same block for 5-10 minutes or a vehicle circling an area 3 or 4 times is more than enough for a temporary detention. As long as suspicious circumstances are articulable then reasonable suspicion can be met. Popping your nose into a police investigation, especially while openly armed, meets the criteria for detention.
    Honestly....some of your views scare the heck out of me. Who determines what scantily clad means? You? What if I'm looking for an address and I'm lost? That requires you to detain me? The guy may have been a fool looking for a reaction, that doesn't make him a criminal. If an LEO is so threatened by someone who is obviously obeying his commands, just because he is armed, he may want to take care of the situation in an appropriate manner, or find a new line of work. Following the guy and calling for backup while he tries to intimidate him into producing ID? That's weak.

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