What do you guys think about this video?

This is a discussion on What do you guys think about this video? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 38special A probable cause stop for a tail light and a Terry stop based on reasonable suspicion are two totally different circumstances. ...

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  1. #106
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    A probable cause stop for a tail light and a Terry stop based on reasonable suspicion are two totally different circumstances. If I stop you for a tail light I may very well ask you where you're coming from/going to. You do not have to answer those questions and you certainly have the right tell me to pound sand. Those questions aren't relevant to the stop or to the investigation. However, if you are loitering about in an area with no apparent purpose or if you are repeatedly circling a block, then your refusal to answer those types of questions will add to my suspicion and will give me reason to detain you longer for investigative purposes.


    You must remember that criminal statute books are extremely thick. You have the right to remain silent and, more often than not, you are only required to identify yourself to police..nothing more. With that said, your failure to cooperate and answer simple, reasonable questions could land you in jail for something stupid like failure to update your driver's license or having an expired insurance card. People like to play games with police for many reasons: they want to be smart a**es, they try to exert rights that don't apply to the situation, they are guilty and think they will outsmart the officer, etc. Sometimes this behavior works in their favor. Fortunately, police have many more games with real consequences. More often than not police know your rights better than you do. Again, this isn't always the case, but it generally is.
    And this post is EXACTLY why we need people like the "idiot" in the video. Cops playing games? JUST DO YOUR JOB! LEOs shouldn't be walking around with a chip on their shoulder or bullying people into doing whatever they say whenever they say it. POWER TRIP
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  3. #107
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    I agree with the majority of your post. I didn't mean to insinuate that I would arrest on routine stops because the driver refused to answer my questions...most of the questions are simply small talk anyway and, as I've said, have no bearing on the investigation. I don't know any officers who get off by "harassing" law abiding citizens over traffic violations. However, if I think additional suspicious or criminal behavior is being hidden from me you better believe I would arrest for an expired insurance card or for failure to update a drivers license. I've also arrested for minor infractions because the driver was an a$$hole from the get go without provocation and essentially challenged me to do it...challenge accepted. My Chief never sees our traffic citations and no commanding officer can tell me I cannot enforce a valid state statute the way I see fit. Expired plates aren't arrestable unless I believe the offender won't appear in court, but many other insignificant charges are arrestable.

    You keep mentioning that police don't have the right to ask you x, y, or z. This is not correct. If I make a stop I have the right to ask you anything I want. I can ask you where you came from, where you're going, how much you've had to drink, what your fifth grade math teacher's name was, or where you get your haircut. You also have the right not to answer, but that doesn't mean the question was invalid. If you are wandering around an apartment complex with no apparent purpose then you do have to tell me where you are going and who you are there to visit. If you don't then you will be arrested for trespassing.

    As I tried to explain to the other poster, my job is to arrest real criminals and take them off the street. Doing that involves investigating a lot of people until I find the right one. Sometimes innocent people are suspicious and, if they are not engaged in criminal activity, then they are released after a short investigation. If they don't want to cooperate and choose to go down the hard road then I can assure you I will win. I know my limitations and what I can and can't do legally. I don't engage in confrontations I can't win and I don't make threats I can't back up.

    Unfortunately the Constitution and rights in general are often misinterpretated. People think they can't be stopped or detained by the police and they think the U.S. is a free country. It's not. We do have many freedoms, but there are still laws, rules, and regulations that must be followed and police are responsible for their enforcement. The Supreme Court has decided this and created probable cause and reasonable suspicion. The whole criminal justice system is based on reasonableness and if I can articulate reasonable reasons for doing what I did then I will win every time.
    As I said at the beginning and end of my last post I agree that if you have reasonable suspicion or probably cause I all with you. In that video at the onset the officer did have at least some reason to be concerned since outsiders will often try to insert themselves in not so good ways into a stop. Especially in cities. If he was going to deal with that then he needed to deal with it when it was occuring. Either call backup then or deal with it himself. At that point I wont argue since that would be a judgement call on the officers part as to his own safety.
    That said, following the guy after the fact who by then he had no reason to fear for his safety and the subject was not doing anything unlawful nor in fact had, I suspect he would have a hard time articulating to a judge why he even followed him in the first place much less arrested him.
    I know a citation is a courtesy to arrest for a lot of things. We both know its SOP to issue a citation unless there is some unusal circumstance. Clog up the jail and courts with frivilous arrests over minor infractions for long and I assure you you commanding officer will be telling you what you can and cant do or you likely wont be an officer very long. Thats why hes there.
    Look im not on the other side here. Im very tight with a lot of LEO, Ive ridden my bike 300 miles in the rain to escort slain officers funerals quite a few times out of respect.
    Fact is there are officers, not a lot and mostly newer ones that come out the gate having a chip on their shoulder, nervous, bound and intent to intimidate whoever they deal with from the start threatening things they know they cant do or wont stand up if they do.

    Pull me if you want too. With a good reason or not. Dont treat me like im a criminal right off the bat with no reason and I guarantee youll get nothing but cooperation, pleasant conversation if you want it and even if you cite me nothing will change in my demeanor. On the other hand talk to me like im some stray dog, assume Im a thug because of how I look and treat me according to that impression Ill still be courteous obey any order you give and not challange you one iota. However if you treat me that way, for no reason, and there are some that will. You will have to guess forever who my math teacher was and where I came from and where Im going LOL.
    And if you do that with no good reason you are going to have a very hard time articulating why you did what you did when I get to court and prove you had no reason too to do what you did.
    Ill repeat you is a generic term, you personally may be the most pleasant officer unless given cause not to be in the world.
    Being LEO gives you a job to do. And tools to do it. That video that started all this discussion plainly shows an officer trying to throw his weight around long after the fact with no legal right to do so.
    His subject is a retard that could have just answered and been done with it. He didnt and the fact he wasnt arrested by officers that obviously would have loved too proves they knew they were over reaching their authority to start with.

  4. #108
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d2jlking View Post
    And this post is EXACTLY why we need people like the "idiot" in the video. Cops playing games? JUST DO YOUR JOB! LEOs shouldn't be walking around with a chip on their shoulder or bullying people into doing whatever they say whenever they say it. POWER TRIP
    First, I DO expect citizens to do what I say when I say it. As I said previously, they don't have to respect me and they don't have to respect my position, but they will do what they are told when they are told to do it. It has nothing to do with a chip on my shoulder or a power trip. It has to do with me maintaining control of the situation for the safety of everyone involved, myself included. I don't give unlawful orders and, if I did, court is the place to dispute it, not on the side of the road. When someone wants to play bull$*it games with me then they can go to jail. It's that simple. I have better things to do than participate in a song and dance on the side of the road.

  5. #109
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    First, I DO expect citizens to do what I say when I say it. As I said previously, they don't have to respect me and they don't have to respect my position, but they will do what they are told when they are told to do it. It has nothing to do with a chip on my shoulder or a power trip. It has to do with me maintaining control of the situation for the safety of everyone involved, myself included. I don't give unlawful orders and, if I did, court is the place to dispute it, not on the side of the road. When someone wants to play bull$*it games with me then they can go to jail. It's that simple. I have better things to do than participate in a song and dance on the side of the road.
    wow.
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  6. #110
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    As I said at the beginning and end of my last post I agree that if you have reasonable suspicion or probably cause I all with you. In that video at the onset the officer did have at least some reason to be concerned since outsiders will often try to insert themselves in not so good ways into a stop. Especially in cities. If he was going to deal with that then he needed to deal with it when it was occuring. Either call backup then or deal with it himself. At that point I wont argue since that would be a judgement call on the officers part as to his own safety.
    That said, following the guy after the fact who by then he had no reason to fear for his safety and the subject was not doing anything unlawful nor in fact had, I suspect he would have a hard time articulating to a judge why he even followed him in the first place much less arrested him.
    I know a citation is a courtesy to arrest for a lot of things. We both know its SOP to issue a citation unless there is some unusal circumstance. Clog up the jail and courts with frivilous arrests over minor infractions for long and I assure you you commanding officer will be telling you what you can and cant do or you likely wont be an officer very long. Thats why hes there.
    Look im not on the other side here. Im very tight with a lot of LEO, Ive ridden my bike 300 miles in the rain to escort slain officers funerals quite a few times out of respect.
    Fact is there are officers, not a lot and mostly newer ones that come out the gate having a chip on their shoulder, nervous, bound and intent to intimidate whoever they deal with from the start threatening things they know they cant do or wont stand up if they do.

    Pull me if you want too. With a good reason or not. Dont treat me like im a criminal right off the bat with no reason and I guarantee youll get nothing but cooperation, pleasant conversation if you want it and even if you cite me nothing will change in my demeanor. On the other hand talk to me like im some stray dog, assume Im a thug because of how I look and treat me according to that impression Ill still be courteous obey any order you give and not challange you one iota. However if you treat me that way, for no reason, and there are some that will. You will have to guess forever who my math teacher was and where I came from and where Im going LOL.
    And if you do that with no good reason you are going to have a very hard time articulating why you did what you did when I get to court and prove you had no reason too to do what you did.
    Ill repeat you is a generic term, you personally may be the most pleasant officer unless given cause not to be in the world.
    Being LEO gives you a job to do. And tools to do it. That video that started all this discussion plainly shows an officer trying to throw his weight around long after the fact with no legal right to do so.
    His subject is a retard that could have just answered and been done with it. He didnt and the fact he wasnt arrested by officers that obviously would have loved too proves they knew they were over reaching their authority to start with.
    It sounds like we are on the same page.
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  7. #111
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d2jlking View Post
    wow.
    It seems as if you may be mistaken about what the job of a police officer really is?

  8. #112
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    It seems as if you may be mistaken about what the job of a police officer really is?
    No, I'm pretty sure I understand what the job is. I just believe that people who are entrusted to serve as police officers should be calm, collected, measured and above "playing games" with people's freedom and rights. I do not think people should be questioned without a real and valid reason. I do not think people should be arrested for a minor infraction simply because they refuse to answer every question a police officer asks. Where I'm going isn't your concern, if you pulled me over for improper lane change. The very idea that a public servant would abuse their authority to teach someone a lesson about "answering simple questions" is repugnant. Police are not above the law, and their duties do not require them to interrogate someone who is acting lawfully. The attention seeker in this video never interfered with the police. If he had, clearly, the officer would have arrested him. He didn't because he had no cause. He then followed him and harrassed a law-abiding citizen. It's ridiculous. If that cop goes on about his business, the stupid video would've never seen the light of day. He couldn't do that because he let his ego get in the way. I understand that the job is difficult, even frustrating. That doesn't make it right to lie to and intimidate people.
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  9. #113
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d2jlking View Post
    No, I'm pretty sure I understand what the job is. I just believe that people who are entrusted to serve as police officers should be calm, collected, measured and above "playing games" with people's freedom and rights. I do not think people should be questioned without a real and valid reason. I do not think people should be arrested for a minor infraction simply because they refuse to answer every question a police officer asks. Where I'm going isn't your concern, if you pulled me over for improper lane change. The very idea that a public servant would abuse their authority to teach someone a lesson about "answering simple questions" is repugnant. Police are not above the law, and their duties do not require them to interrogate someone who is acting lawfully. The attention seeker in this video never interfered with the police. If he had, clearly, the officer would have arrested him. He didn't because he had no cause. He then followed him and harrassed a law-abiding citizen. It's ridiculous. If that cop goes on about his business, the stupid video would've never seen the light of day. He couldn't do that because he let his ego get in the way. I understand that the job is difficult, even frustrating. That doesn't make it right to lie to and intimidate people.
    And if you had read my previous posts you would see that I am not advocating arresting someone for refusing to "answer simple questions" when they are stopped for a minor traffic violation. If I stop a speeder on the interstate, ask where they are heading, and they tell me that they would rather not say then so be it. If they tell me I'm an a$$hole for stopping them, say that I lied about my radar observation, and tell me that I have no right to question them, then we will have problems. If they tell me that they don't have to give me their license then we will have a problem. If I observe several indicators of interstate drug trafficking and they give obvious lies about their travel routes and times then I may very well arrest them for a nonsense violation. If they tell me they don't have to step out of the car when requested then we will have a problem. If a person interjects themself into my traffic stop and fails to leave when ordered then we will have a problem. When college kids have a loud party with underage drinking and they barricade the doors, turn the lights off, cut the music, and refuse to answer then I will start my games. People have rights and they are free to exercise them...when they are right. I am also free to enforce any and every law I choose...it's actually what I'm paid to do. When someone is wrong and they intentionally make my job more difficult and less safe then the problems start. Exercising legitimate rights does not make my job more difficult or less safe.

  10. #114
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    38special quote It sounds like we are on the same page.

    Always were just took a few pages to get there.

  11. #115
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    And if you had read my previous posts you would see that I am not advocating arresting someone for refusing to "answer simple questions" when they are stopped for a minor traffic violation..
    I did read your previous responses:

    "With that said, your failure to cooperate and answer simple, reasonable questions could land you in jail for something stupid like failure to update your driver's license or having an expired insurance card"

    Seems like maybe you should re-read your posts. Look, I'm not suggesting that people should make the job of LEOs harder or less safe. In my opinion the officer(s) in the video made their own job more difficult. No law was broken, so move along. They didn't wan't to see a citizen open-carrying, from their response, it seems they felt threatened by the idea of an armed law-abiding citizen. He was very calm, his behavior (although an obvious attempt to garner a response) wasn't erratic or threatening. He obeyed commands, and he was polite. The officers seemed ignorant of the very laws they were trying to enforce. Maybe that was intentional, and just an attempt to bully the man into producing ID that he isn't required by law to show. My argument is that shouldn't be the case. Why the animosity? As I stated before, if the guy is a real threat, take care of it immediately. If he's just a law abiding person, exercising his rights, then ignore him. I suspect these Open Carry Activists will get bored and choose different methods if the Police simply leave them alone.
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  12. #116
    Member Array ruso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pscipio03 View Post
    Being an idiot is not illegal. If it was, we wouldn't have Nickelback.
    That is signature material right there, LOL.

  13. #117
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d2jlking View Post
    I did read your previous responses:

    "With that said, your failure to cooperate and answer simple, reasonable questions could land you in jail for something stupid like failure to update your driver's license or having an expired insurance card"

    Seems like maybe you should re-read your posts. Look, I'm not suggesting that people should make the job of LEOs harder or less safe. In my opinion the officer(s) in the video made their own job more difficult. No law was broken, so move along. They didn't wan't to see a citizen open-carrying, from their response, it seems they felt threatened by the idea of an armed law-abiding citizen. He was very calm, his behavior (although an obvious attempt to garner a response) wasn't erratic or threatening. He obeyed commands, and he was polite. The officers seemed ignorant of the very laws they were trying to enforce. Maybe that was intentional, and just an attempt to bully the man into producing ID that he isn't required by law to show. My argument is that shouldn't be the case. Why the animosity? As I stated before, if the guy is a real threat, take care of it immediately. If he's just a law abiding person, exercising his rights, then ignore him. I suspect these Open Carry Activists will get bored and choose different methods if the Police simply leave them alone.
    I stand by my quote...failure to answer simple questions COULD land you in jail for something insignificant. I didn't say I would personally go that route, but I would be well within legal boundaries if I chose to. And again, my post was not necessarily about the video; it was in response to some of the rediculous comments that were made on this forum and the misconceptions about law enforcement. I agree with you about the video...I don't agree that the officers handled the sutuation as quickly or as cleanly as they should have and once the guy was no longer a threat they should have moved on. If it were me I would have told the guy to leave once and, when he continued to loiter about and run his mouth then he would have gone to jail for jaywalking, loitering, and interference.

  14. #118
    Ex Member Array gregnsc's Avatar
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    I'm sorry,Pscip,i guess because some dont see it the way you do that makes them wrong,smh

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