Question about law and work for school employees...

This is a discussion on Question about law and work for school employees... within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm not trying to start a debate on right/wrong etc...but legally what is correct? Is your personal vehicle ok to keep firearm in onschool property? ...

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    Member Array mojo0107's Avatar
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    Question about law and work for school employees...

    I'm not trying to start a debate on right/wrong etc...but legally what is correct? Is your personal vehicle ok to keep firearm in onschool property? If you work there? Help me out on this please.
    Last edited by mojo0107; March 14th, 2013 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Question answered
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    If you're really looking for legal clarification, lawyers are better at these sorts of things than...internet forum members. That having been said, policies seldom trump legal statutes. Yet judges don't like hearing even brilliant arguments from non-attorneys. So it's gonna' take a lawyer anyway. Sadly, common sense or right & wrong have very little influence in the eyes of the law. It's all about the interpretation of the Kentucky State Statues.
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    Senior Member Array USM1976's Avatar
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    Each state is different and many are the same, but you need to read Kentucky's statutes regarding carrying firearms on school property.
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    Member Array gowie2's Avatar
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    I'm a H.S. teacher in Michigan and it is legal to have in the parking lot. Mine stays in my truck during school. Pending legislation may change that for teachers with CPL. We can only hope.

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    Member Array mojo0107's Avatar
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    Well the issue is the state allows it but my local school board policy says they can fire me on the spot if it's in my truck. A violation of state law. however I was told that the way rule is written our personal vehicle is not considered school property.
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by gowie2 View Post
    I'm a H.S. teacher in Michigan and it is legal to have in the parking lot. Mine stays in my truck during school. Pending legislation may change that for teachers with CPL. We can only hope.
    I work for a university and I'm legally allowed to carry anywhere on campus except in classroom and dormitory buildings. Would love to see MI law allow for classroom carry.
    "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." ~ P. J. O'Rourke

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Kentucky Revised Statutes -- See KRS 527.070 and KRS 237.110 (16)(f) in particular.

    KY Supreme Court ruling of Apr 26, 2012 -- Guns in car legal on campus -- reversal of Mitchell case of firing by Univ. of KY firing for having firearm in car glovebox.

    KY Concealed Carry Coalition -- KC3

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    Check with an attorney competent on KY statutes and self-defense law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo0107 View Post
    Well the issue is the state allows it but my local school board policy says they can fire me on the spot if it's in my truck. A violation of state law. however I was told that the way rule is written our personal vehicle is not considered school property.
    Without probable cause they couldn't legally search your car. Is it worth getting in to a stink about? If it were me, I'd have a gun vault under my seat and lock it up, and keep my mouth shut about having one.
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    "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." ~ P. J. O'Rourke

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    New Member Array Ventus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bombthrower77 View Post
    I work for a university and I'm legally allowed to carry anywhere on campus except in classroom and dormitory buildings. Would love to see MI law allow for classroom carry.
    As I understand the Michigan law regarding pistol free zones is that any individual licensed to carry concealed may carry concealed anywhere on campus except dorms or classroom, where those licensed can carry openly in dorms and classrooms. With the state preemption MSU, UofM, and Wayne State are the only universities/colleges that can legally ban weapons and set their own ordinances. For employees, I believe the way the statues are worded, legally allows the employer to prohibit employees. Now with the recent precedent set by CADL vs. MOC on public libraries/district libraries being preempted, Public Universities (they are municipal or quasi municipal) libraries are public and do not require employment or student status violate preemption as well as the Public Universities no gun policies. Effectively by having a public library in the middle of a "gun free zone" creates confusion of he interpretation of the preemption statue, which in itself was a primary reason for the state preemption. Now University policy is what concerns most since it would lead to expulsion or suspension, which is becoming harder for Universities to process as non-academic dismissals are almost always going to be brought to court.

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    Distinguished Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Like carrying concealed, how will they know unless you tell someone?

    The only reason I do not carry in court rooms is because we have to go through metal detectors.

    If it is hidden, the only ones that will know are God and you but God is not going to tell anyone like your friends will.

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    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    KRS 527.020(8) states in part that:

    "A loaded or unloaded firearm or other deadly weapon shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person if it is located in any enclosed container, compartment, or storage space installed as original equipment in a motor vehicle by its manufacturer, including but not limited to a glove compartment, center console, or seat pocket, regardless of whether said enclosed container, storage space, or compartment is locked, unlocked, or does not have a locking mechanism. No person or organization, public or private, shall prohibit a person from keeping a loaded or unloaded firearm or ammunition, or both, or other deadly weapon in a vehicle in accordance with the provisions of this subsection.



    KRS:237.106
    Right of employees and other persons to possess firearms in vehicle
    --
    Employer liable for denying right
    --
    Exceptions.
    (1)
    No person, including but not limited to an employer, who is the owner, lessee, or
    occupant of real property shall prohibit any person who is legally entitled to possess
    a firearm from possessing a firearm, part of a firearm, ammunition, or ammunition
    component in a vehicle on the property.
    (2)
    A person, including but not limited to an employer, who owns, leases, or otherwise
    occupies real property may prevent a person who is prohibited by state or federal
    law from possessing a firearm or ammunition from possessing a firearm or
    ammunition on the property.
    (3)
    A firearm may be removed from the vehicle or handled in the case of self
    -
    defense,defense of another, defense of property, or as authorized by the owner, lessee, or
    occupant of the property.
    (4)
    An employer that fires, disciplines, demotes, or otherwise punishes an employee
    who is lawfully exercising a right guaranteed by this section and who is engaging in
    conduct in compliance with this statute shall be liable in civil damages. An
    employee may seek and the court shall grant an injunction against an employer who
    is violating the provisions of this section when it is found that the employee is in
    compliance with the provisions of this section.

    (5)
    The provisions of this section shall not apply to any real property:
    (a)
    Owned, leased, or occupied by the United States government, upon which the
    possession or carrying of firearms is prohi
    bited or controlled;
    (b)
    Of a detention facility as defined in KRS 520.010; or
    (c)
    Where a section of the Kentucky Revised Statutes specifically prohibits
    possession or carrying of firearms on the property.
    Effective:
    July 12, 2006
    History:
    Created 2006 Ky

    ************************************************

    KRS 527.070 (SNIP)
    Unlawful possession of a weapon on school property
    --
    Posting of sign
    --
    Exemptions.
    (1)
    A person is guilty of unlawful possession of a weapon on school property when he
    knowingly deposits, possesses, or carries, whether openly or concealed, for
    purposes o
    ther than instructional or school
    -
    sanctioned ceremonial purposes, or the
    purposes permitted in subsection (3) of this section, any firearm or other deadly
    weapon, destructive device, or booby trap device in any public or private school
    building or bus, on
    any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area,
    athletic field, or any other property owned, used, or operated by any board of
    education, school, board of trustees, regents, or directors for the administration of
    any public or private educat
    ional institution. The provisions of this section shall not
    apply to institutions of postsecondary or higher education.
    (2)
    Each chief administrator of a public or private school shall display about the school
    in prominent locations, including, but not lim
    ited to, sports arenas, gymnasiums,
    stadiums, and cafeterias, a sign at least six (6) inches high and fourteen (14) inches
    wide stating:
    UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF A WEAPON ON SCHOOL
    PROPERTY IN KENTUCKY IS A FELONY PUNISHABLE
    BY A MAXIMUM OF FIVE (5) YEARS IN
    PRISON AND A
    TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR ($10,000) FINE.
    Failure to post the sign shall not relieve any person of liability under this section.
    (3)
    The provisions of this section prohibiting the unlawful possession of a weapon on
    school property shall not apply

    to:
    (a)
    An adult who possesses a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a vehicle
    operated by the adult and is not removed from the vehicle, except for a
    purpose permitted herein, or brandished by the adult, or by any other person
    acting with expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on
    school property;

    (b)
    Any pupils who are members of the reserve officers training corps or pupils
    enrolled in a course of instruction or members of a school club or team, to the
    extent they are required to carry arms or weapons in the discharge of their
    official class or team duties;
    (c)
    Any peace officer or police officer authorized to carry a concealed weapon
    pursuant to KRS 527.020;
    (d)
    Persons employed by the Armed Forces of the United States or
    members of
    the National Guard or militia when required in the discharge of their official
    duties to carry arms or weapons;
    (e)
    Civil officers of the United States in the discharge of their official duties.
    Nothing in this section shall be construed as to a
    llow any person to carry a
    concealed weapon into a public or private elementary or secondary school
    building


    . Acts ch.
    240, sec.
    8, effective July 12, 200

    ****************************

    "MY Advice" is to cut/copy paste the above in a word processor and print a couple copies to keep in your vehicle "just in case" then don't tell ANYONE you have a weapon in your vehicle
    Last edited by Aceoky; March 23rd, 2013 at 10:52 AM.

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    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo0107 View Post
    Well the issue is the state allows it but my local school board policy says they can fire me on the spot if it's in my truck. A violation of state law. however I was told that the way rule is written our personal vehicle is not considered school property.
    Does your system pay YOUR property tax on your vehicle (LOL) UK took it to the Ky Supreme Court & lost a big suit over this very issue, either your BOE policy makers (and lawyers) are behind or they know and just don't want to change the "rules" but either way they cannot fire you so long as it remains in a compartment within the locked vehicle(Console or glove box for sure) locked or unlocked (lock the vehicle naturally) DO you have your CCDW?

    ETA - well they "can " fire you for it, but you can then sue them (see above) for damages including reinstatement of your position and backpay I'd imagine

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    Member Array jrclen's Avatar
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    Where I live the local Sheriff's department regularly brings drug sniffing dogs into the school parking lot to search the student's vehicles. I am not sure what would happen if the dog hit on a teacher's car. My point is, searches no longer must be legal and proper. We gave up our 4th amendment rights when the drug war started. Keeping a gun in your car against school policy might be risky.
    Shall not be infringed means - shall not be infringed.
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    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    "BOE Policy" does NOT "trump" Ky state law which is posted above

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceoky View Post
    An adult who possesses a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a vehicle
    operated by the adult and is not removed from the vehicle, except for a
    purpose permitted herein, or brandished by the adult, or by any other person
    acting with expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on
    school property;
    Key word may be operated. If the car is parked, is it operated?
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