Rob Pincus: when to, and not to OC

This is a discussion on Rob Pincus: when to, and not to OC within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Rob Pincus is not the only opinion out there, but he is pretty highly regarded. Here's his take on when, why, and how to OC, ...

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Thread: Rob Pincus: when to, and not to OC

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    Distinguished Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Rob Pincus: when to, and not to OC

    Rob Pincus is not the only opinion out there, but he is pretty highly regarded. Here's his take on when, why, and how to OC, and when and why to not OC.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    IMO, the only unreasonable place to openly carry arms is to places where an armed citizenry is no longer an effective means of keeping people safe from predation. Can't imagine such a place actually exists, except in the minds of the destroyers who'd like us to think there is.

    No demeaning of Mr. Pincus's mind is intended, though on this score I believe he's misguided and incorrect to even pose the question, that he's choking (at least, a little bit) on the pap we've all been spoon-fed by said destroyers. Fail.
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    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    I still don't believe the "OC'ing makes you a target" nonsense. Show me some facts to support it and I'll consider changing my position.

    But I like Rob Pincus. So I'll let it slide.
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    I still don't believe the "OC'ing makes you a target" nonsense. Show me some facts to support it and I'll consider changing my position.

    But I like Rob Pincus. So I'll let it slide.
    Here come the LEO examples and the anecdotal civilian examples. Anyhoo, I would not change my position. It is up to every one to determine what they want to do with lives as long as it is legal and they do not intend to put others peoples lives at risk.
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    Rob Pincus is a good man and a great fellow American.
    And as we are all still living in some semblance of what used to be called AMERICA ~ Please feel free to agree or disagree with Robs thoughts and opinion regarding open carry.

    Please also keep in mind that Rob Pincus is a DefensiveCarry forum member and as such is afforded the exact same right as every other member not to be personally flamed, demeaned, or disrespected.

    Your own opinions are most assuredly welcome as long as you attack the argument/opinion and not Rob Pincus.
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    And that is his opinion.

    I'm not one to open carry just to make a political statement and I don't do it just to make YouTube videos.

    For me, open carry is the most comfortable method of carry year 'round and that is why I do it. I do open carry with a holster that has a retention device.
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    I do not open carry but, I will respond to the "show me the evidence" argument.

    AKA - I still don't believe the "OC'ing makes you a target" nonsense.

    You need to remember that Open Carry and Concealed Carry BOTH and combined are still in the "single digits" as VS the total American population.

    Add to that Open Carry (as a mode of carry) is performed FAR LESS than Concealed Carry. AKA of the percentage of the total folks that carry a firearm - people who carry Open are comparatively few.

    So it is sort of difficult to find any evidence of Open Carry folks being disarmed or killed and part of the reason for that will be that so many news articles basically lack relevant information anyway.

    So then you need to ask the questions:

    Will armed persons be disarmed and or killed by Bad Guys that are intent on perpetrating a crime?

    Will an obviously armed person be disarmed, or shot, or killed if they are seen by Bad Guys intent on perpetrating a crime.

    In other words...you are there...you are at a location...Bad Guys know that are armed will they be willing to "take you out" if the believe that you may deter their plans?

    And to find evidence of that you need to alter your search methodology.

    Google Search:
    Security Guard Killed - Guard Killed - Bank Guard Killed - Security Guard Shot - Security Guard Killed - Armed Guard Killed - Armed Guard Shot - Armed Guard Injured - Bank Guard Injured - Guard Ambushed - Guard disarmed....etc etc etc

    And just keep in mind that as an obviously armed person and a visible, known, armed potential threat - or possible armed deterrent to a crime intent on going down -

    To the Bad Guys you are identical to...and will be treated exactly like...the visibly armed guard.
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    That goes back to my point...the folks that are disarmed while OC'ing are normally doing it during the course of official duties. Not so with the civilian OC'er.

    I see your point but still am not concinved by a long shot that I am at any substantial risk that is proven by any metrics.

    And, again. It is my life anyway. Stats and everything change depending on where you live, what you are doing, your actions, and training.

    Stats would tell me to not jump out of airplanes......it is an option.....and something I don't have to do.......but I choose to do it because I can in this "free" country of ours.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    To the Bad Guys you are identical to...and will be treated exactly like...the visibly armed guard.
    Does that also include the LE officer patrolling a beer tent solo etc...?..or the State Police in my state that generally ride w/o a partner?
    Why do uniformed LE officers carry openly? Show of force? Deterrent to the BG? Why wear the uniform at all if they are targets?

    Mr. Pincus makes the case well to repeal OC allowance; after all, "since no one is doing it Mr. Chairman, I see no further use for it"
    Use it or lose it.

    I've heard this argument far too many times concerning eliciting a negative response from the public at large.
    Hmmm? So perhaps my (words) elicit negative responses from certain people or groups; maybe I need to stop using those words for fear of offending a person or group.

    Wait; we already lost a fair percentage of the 1st amendment; I believe the fed now calls this "hate speech"; which BTW can carry jail time.

    Where O' where does this end?

    If the argument that OC is unnecessary in nearly all instances; than let's outlaw it. I think not.

    20 rnd clips? How about 12?..7? Sold to the lowest bidder; after all, who really needs more than 7 bullets?
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    "That goes back to my point...the folks that are disarmed while OC'ing are normally doing it during the course of official duties. Not so with the civilian OC'er"



    I honestly do not care how anybody chooses to carry AKA Open or Concealed. My only point being that the numbers radically change when you are not specifically searching the WEB for civilian OCers being disarmed or killed, ambushed, shot, attacked etc. because their numbers Firstly are relatively miniscule and Secondly the number of times in one lifetime that any of us (as civilians) will actually be forced into a deadly confrontation are also somewhat slim.

    But, then again scores of civilians win the various State lotteries every single week...if you catch my drift on that.

    So....my argument IS that should you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (Your Personal LOTTERY Time) while being visibly armed then all logic and common sense dictates that you will be handled in exactly the same fashion as the armed guard if the Bad Guys are bad enough and they want what they want badly enough.

    It is just one more thing that folks need to (at least) give some thought and consideration to when deciding how they will choose to carry.
    Open or Concealed.
    Whatever they decide (after doing that) is their own personal business.

    Were I a seriously bad guy (and I am not) and if I was desperately drug addicted (and I am not) but, if I were those things and I needed
    $$$ or drugs to support my drug habit and I burst into a business with bad intentions...and an open carry individual was standing in the pharmacy line between me and my dreaded drug addiction...well...Good Luck staying alive and well in that particular scenario.

    That is my only point.


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    I think the major difference between an OCer being attacked and an armed guard being attacked is that a criminal can pattern an armed guard and enact a plan to give them the advantage.

    I'm sure that at times a criminal will see an OCer and have time to enact a plan to attack them and at other times the OCer will be more of a wild card. The two are not the same but I suspect that there is a good bit of "tactical" cross over between the two.
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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post

    That is my only point.
    If the point is all about the odds of OC risk Vs CC risk, it will be difficult to quantify with [ANY] degree of certainty.

    One can also easily come to a similar conclusion and make the case that a drug crazed criminal (Visibly saw) the citizen OC'ing and decided [against] further action and abandoned their evil deed with a possible outcome of other innocents saying alive.

    Conceal carry is no guarantee of survival when the BG is hell best on destruction with no regard for human life. The BG rarely announces their intentions; the event generally will happen in a flash..and further; I see no evidence of compliance insuring one's survivability.
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    Member Array Lastmohecken's Avatar
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    I sure hope they get open carry worked out for my state. But I believe that Pincus makes some very good points. I want the right to OC, but I do think it is probably smarter to Concealed carry instead.

    If I am walking across an open parking lot infested with a bunch of rattlesnakes that I can see, I am probably OK and I can even kill them pretty easily, especially since I can plainly see them and even the dangerous end. But if am walking through tall grass infested with a bunch of rattlesnakes, it much more dangerous for me, because I may not know where the danger is. If you can see and identify the enemy, then it's not that much of stretch to out flank, ambush or kill them. That's just plain tactics.
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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    PS: I object to the notion that OC as a "political statement is reckless."
    That statement flies in the face of the current attack on law abiding gun owners.
    It is more than certainly NOT the only reason I choose to OC at times, but it IS one of the reasons.

    The entire 2A argument and the right to possess firearms (IS) sadly entirely political! It may not be right, but it is the way it is.

    The attempt at a AWB because they look mean and are black and have a pistol grip is held up by the gun grabbers as a visible element of their claims to sway
    others that their cause is justified. I see no problem in making a political statement when I wear my gun visibly saying that my cause is not only just, it is legal.

    OCing IS a political statement regardless of ones reason to do so..It says "I am a American..It is MY right to do so"

    If we start driving down that road within our own ranks that it is reckless and silly to OC regardless of the reasons to do so, we WILL lose the right to do so.

    I can not speak concerning other states, but here in Indiana we are issued NOT a CCWP..we are issued a LTC "License to Carry"
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

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    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    I OC at times. Where I live, in rural Shelby County Tennessee, it is common enough that there is no political statement being made if you OC. No one gives it a second glance unless they are from the NorthEast here visiting for some reason.
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