Defensive carry method, when carrying openly -- sidearms, long guns

This is a discussion on Defensive carry method, when carrying openly -- sidearms, long guns within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; LET'S DISCUSS THIS QUESTION: What is a suitable defensive method of carrying a gun (either sidearm or long gun) in such a way that it ...

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Thread: Defensive carry method, when carrying openly -- sidearms, long guns

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Question Defensive carry method, when carrying openly -- sidearms, long guns

    LET'S DISCUSS THIS QUESTION: What is a suitable defensive method of carrying a gun (either sidearm or long gun) in such a way that it provides for reasonably-rapid self-defense if needed, provides for reasonable retention security, and which avoids behaviors that could be easily misconstrued as outright menacing/threatening behaviors. Got pics of examples? Post/link them. Let's see what y'all are talking about. If you can, please address both OC of sidearms as well as OC of long arms, with examples/pics if possible, showing what you feel is a defensively appropriate manner of carry.


    ===============
    Background

    Recently, numerous discussion threads have occurred in the OpenCarry forum in which the openly-visible carry of rifles (most particularly) is terribly inflammatory by nature, cannot be done in a manner that's non-threatening to people, etc etc. To a degree, many of these same arguments are leveled against the openly-visible carry of sidearms as well, though apparently with far less frequency. This is the impetus behind the question being posed in this thread.

    The openly-visible carrying by armed citizens occurs all across the country, in the USA. In most states, OC of a sidearm is lawful and relatively common enough to be deemed acceptable so long as normal and customary behavior goes along with it (ie, unless otherwise engaging in deliberately threatening or menacing actions). In some states, OC of a long gun is lawful and relatively uncommon (at least, by comparison). Yet, here it is in 2013 and we continue to have extreme reactions in many places by other citizens upon the mere sight of an armed citizen, either with sidearms or long guns, but most particularly with long guns.


    Note: Let's please avoid grousing about the appropriateness of OC in this thread. Let's instead strictly focus on recommended methods of carrying openly that support SD and avoid (to the extent possible) irrational, knee-jerk MWAG type calls. There are plenty of other threads that devolve into that sort of thing. Let's keep this one clean, if at all humanly possible.


    Examples of folks carrying, to give you some ideas about the sort of differences in arms, carry position, method, apparent awareness, etc:

    1. rifles & sidearms
    2. sidearm
    3. rifle & sidearm
    4. rifles
    5. sidearm
    6. sidearm
    7. rifle
    8. sidearm
    9. sidearm
    10. sidearm
    11. rifle
    12. rifle
    Last edited by ccw9mm; August 22nd, 2013 at 07:49 PM.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Senior Member Array Zralou's Avatar
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    I will be watching this thread closely, I purchased a Glock 19 yesterday with the intention of possibly OC'ing it. Living in a 'redneck' area environment and being female, it is a little un-nerving to say the least. I'm considering the Blackhawk Serpa holster with the retention button to help prevent someone trying to grab my gun.

    Sara Lou
    Just because i'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me....

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    I voted for picture #1.....

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Applicable post from a different thread ...

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    What would you recommend as being a similarly acceptable and lawful manner of carry of a long gun, a manner that's conducive to SD, quickly available if needed, and with sufficient retention/SA to guard against grabs? Obviously, as with any firearm, it needs to be carried in a clearly non-threatening, non-menacing manner (ie, not at permanent low-ready as one might do in a live combat zone, which is wholly unsuitable in a standard US domestic environment for the carrying of any sort of weaponry).
    That is one of the million dollar questions. He is carrying with a two point sling, muzzle down. In order for him to employ the rifle he simply cannot rotate the rifle around to a firing position he will have to remove the rifle and shift it to a firing position. As you stated it would not be prudent to carry in a low ready or in his hand so you would have to go to a middle of the road carry. Besides that I still see no sights on the weapon.

    Using a one or two point sling the rifle would be slung on just the shoulder with the muzzle down. One hand would have to remain at all times on the sling first to keep the rifle from sliding off the shoulder and as a retention device in the event of a grab.

    The persons situational awareness would have to extend out another 3-5 yards and 5 seconds or so. I teach SA in zones if you will. No one person can see everything so the first zone is your personal space, then about six feet out, then 5 yards and so on.
    We are all familiar with the Tueller (sp) drill, so in order for him to unsling and deploy the rifle, depending on whether it was legal to carry with a round in the chamber, he would need at least 5-6 seconds more or less depending on his training.

    One thing I point out when I teach classes to LE is that it is all fine and dandy to grab a long gun but once you deploy with that long gun you have now taken yourself out of the arrest/hands on phase of the fight. It is hard enough to have a physical confrontation with someone and protect your holstered/unholstered handgun much less a long gun and your sidearm. In his situation he is now effectively one handed.
    Yes with training the weapon can be moved to under either arm for the hands on portion but keep in mind LE and Military have others watching their six an officer alone holding a long gun should wait for assistance instead of approaching a suspect alone.

    Remember with a long gun a bad guy does not have to disarm you to make your weapon ineffective all he has to do is get in between you and the muzzle then the fight is on. There are techniques that can be used to protect the weapon from a grab but in the middle of Wal Mart is not the place to be with a rifle anyways, just my opinion.

    How can this guy defend himself? As stated get a CCW, learn to use a knife and carry it accordingly, learn self defense techniques. As I have stated over and over I carry a weapon for self defense nothing else if he chooses to carry a rifle then it should be for self defense and in a position/condition to accomplish that task other than that he is simply an armed victim.

    Of course he could always use the California method of carry. For those of you that say that the sight of a man with a rifle in a store, parking lot, restaurant would not bother you, you may need to readdress your situational awareness and your plan of action.

    Attachment 77881
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Thats not a real cop in the photo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zralou View Post
    I will be watching this thread closely, I purchased a Glock 19 yesterday with the intention of possibly OC'ing it. Living in a 'redneck' area environment and being female, it is a little un-nerving to say the least. I'm considering the Blackhawk Serpa holster with the retention button to help prevent someone trying to grab my gun.

    Sara Lou
    Please don't. There is a very good reason the SERPA is banned at many training schools. There are other retention holsters out there without the documented history of NDs.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
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    TRX
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    30 years ago there was no carry in Arkansas, open or concealed, unless you had a badge. There were also strict limitations on carrying a firearm in a vehicle.

    For a few years my only transportation was a motorcycle. I took my Mauser to the range slung across my back. Though technically not a lawful means of transporting the rifle at the time, I don't think anyone ever noticed. The bolt and ammunition were zipped into the tank bag.

    As far as I know, carrying a slung rifle on a motorcycle is still unlawful in Arkansas; the CHL is for a pistol with a 12" or shorter barrel only.

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    Thats not a real cop in the photo.
    SS. If you are talking about the pic in my post it is not a cop at all. It was taken at an OC event.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Just my opinion all of your example pics of rifle carriers appear to be attn seekers not people carrying for self defence. I openly carried a long gun here in CA for many years. I had a scabbord attached to the front forks of my Honda Trail 90, and a gun rack in the back window of every pick up I owned till about the early 90s. I dont ever remember anyone commenting in a negetive way. I stopped carrying that way when I moved into town and theft would have been a problem. Where I lived and worked that was pretty much the norm. I dont remember ever carrying a gun out of fear for my life or familys life tho. It was to protect livestock and crops from predators and pests. When I became a plumber the sight of a shotgun in the truck was enough to keep thiefs away from you.
    Now in CA open carry is not an option and the law is so confusing that its hard to tell when you can be seen with a gun unless you are actively hunting. Its too bad things have gone this far. DR

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    Be assured that should you openly carry any firearm long or handgun in a state that does not have a constitutional mandate for OC that the military will notified, all LE in 100 miles, all store mangers, drones dispatched to your area, and about a 4th of gun owners will call for your rights to be taken away because they think you shouldnt do that even if its totally legal.

    That my friend is the reality of OC. Mores the pity.
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

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    Senior Member Array Zralou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Please don't. There is a very good reason the SERPA is banned at many training schools. There are other retention holsters out there without the documented history of NDs.
    I've seen the u-tube vids, I also owned one of the Serpa holsters, but some IDPA ranges don't allow them, so I sold it. I never had a problem with my finger 'dropping' into the trigger guard, it always ended up on the slide, I always liked that holster and replaced it with the same thing without the locking catch.

    The G19 isn't for competition, so now the catch system is no longer a problem.

    Sara Lou
    Just because i'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me....

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    This is a great topic.

    When it comes to carrying handguns a lot will depend on the size and weight of the gun itself. I pretty much carry one gun now a Glock 19 so I will stick with that.

    When considering holsters/method of carry there are a few things to consider. First is this your primary weapon? How much retention do you need/want/are willing to train with? Obviously the more retention you have the more you have to train with it.

    Most of my holsters can be used for CC or OC. I prefer Kydex molded holsters with no cant. They are worn strong side, slightly in front of my hip. If a problem arises I can tuck my arm in or physically grab the holster to cover it. As always I place the holster over a belt loop, put the belt though one side, then the belt loop, then out the other side. This gives more support to the weapon and holster.

    I currently carry AIWB with a Kydex holster with one spare magazine. The system is not for everyone but it works well for me.

    Most molded Kydex Pancake type holsters, like the Raven, cover the trigger guard and the pistol sits deep enough in them that a retention strap or device is not needed. When worn as stated it is extremely defensible and quick to draw from.

    Glock with RCS 2.jpgGlock with RCS.jpg

    I also use a Safariland rig that allows me to simply remove the holster and put it on whatever mounting platform is needed at the time from paddle, drop leg or molle attachments. These holsters have my favorite retention the thumb button with a hood covering the button itself.

    Holsters 004.jpg

    Again it has a strong attachment to the belt, I wear one belt 99% of the time, a reinforced Wilderness Tactical and I have no issues. Holster and belt work as a system to support the weight of the firearm.

    In regards to rifle carry. Some things to decide upon. What type sling? What is the manual of arms that I will have to do to employ the rifle? Does the sling allow me to fire from either shoulder? Does the sling support the weight of the weapon for long periods without discomfort?

    I use a combination of one and two point slings depending on the situation. If a person were OC'ing a rifle in public he must be able to has access to it quickly but not slung in a tactical/threatening manner, for the lack of a better phrase.

    Please note that my sling is not adjusted for this type of carry but you get the idea. Photos are compliments of my ten year old.

    I would use the old tried and true Safari method. For right handed shooters the rifle is slung on the left shoulder, muzzle down. My left hand can now be placed either on the middle portion of the sling or holding the forearm to control the rifle.
    When needed the left hand simply releases the sling and grabs the forearm of the rifle, which is where it would be when firing anyways, and brings the rifle up.

    rifle slung 001.jpg

    At the same time the other hand is reaching for the pistol grip/stock of the rifle. Now should you be carrying with an empty chamber you will have to figure out the best method to chamber a round for you and your rifle. Personally I wait until my hand is on the pistol grip and then chamber, remove the safety and so on again dependent on the weapon.

    rifle slung 002.jpgrifle slung 003.jpg

    Another variant would be using a single point sling or a sling loose enough to accomplish the task, would be to sling the rifle on your right arm, if right handed, muzzle down and the same principle would apply. Either grab the forearm of the rifle with your right hand and begin to bring the rifle up.
    Your left hand would now grab the forearm of the rifle and the right hand would go to the pistol grip. If the weapon sling was loose/long enough and dependent on the attachment point you would simply reach up and grab the pistol grip with your right hand and imitate a draw stroke bringing the rifle up.

    Again depending on the situation you could in fact use a single point sling to where it positions the rifle as stated above but you have to make sure you maintain positive control without looking like you are going to use it in the Pop Tart aisle. In regards to the statement about the comfort of the sling, it better be comfortable because it is what you are stuck with.

    Can you imagine what would happen if the rifle got uncomfortable and you decided to switch shoulders or positions and about that time someone comes around the end of the aisle and finds you in mid transition with the rifle in your hands? It probably would not go well for you at that moment.

    The other thing to consider is that a rifle sling is meant to carry the weight of the weapon it is not necessarily meant at a retention device. As a matter of fact depending on how the rifle/sling is attached to you it can be used to disable you. The gent in the video imagine if someone simply comes up behind him and uses the sling to choke him?

    Anyways some of my pics would not load but you get the idea. Remember what is good in the field may not be the best for a crowded enviroment. Hope this helps.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Just a quick comment.

    Serpa holsters have problems for some people when they use some sort of single action auto 1911 or BHP. They disengage the safety to soon and the finger goes to the trigger. It has not been a problem with traditional DA/SA autos or Glock type pistols.

    Having said that this is a training issue. If you don't place your finger on the trigger until your weapon is oriented to the target there is no problem.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    We all tend to express opinions based on our own individual experiences, and environment. I'm sure there are locations and situations where open carry of a long arm is perfectly sensible and even expected. Most if not all of the examples shown here are IMO pretty much people making a point. You can do that. My question is why?

    Sara Lou... Welcome to the forum, and our ongoing debate. My advice to you, if your going to open carry is that you consider using an open carry holster. A duty holster that incorperates some form of securty is one idea. Another is a military flap holster. Duty style holsters tend to protect the firearm from the elements better, and are designed to be snatch/fall resistant. I never understood people cattying openly with C/C holsters.
    tacman605 and mcp1810 like this.

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    VIP Member Array 1MoreGoodGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    LET'S DISCUSS THIS QUESTION: What is a suitable defensive method of carrying a gun (either sidearm or long gun) in such a way that it provides for reasonably-rapid self-defense if needed, provides for reasonable retention security, and which avoids behaviors that could be easily misconstrued as outright menacing/threatening behaviors. Got pics of examples? Post/link them. Let's see what y'all are talking about. If you can, please address both OC of sidearms as well as OC of long arms, with examples/pics if possible, showing what you feel is a defensively appropriate manner of carry.


    ===============
    Background

    Recently, numerous discussion threads have occurred in the OpenCarry forum in which the openly-visible carry of rifles (most particularly) is terribly inflammatory by nature, cannot be done in a manner that's non-threatening to people, etc etc. To a degree, many of these same arguments are leveled against the openly-visible carry of sidearms as well, though apparently with far less frequency. This is the impetus behind the question being posed in this thread.

    The openly-visible carrying by armed citizens occurs all across the country, in the USA. In most states, OC of a sidearm is lawful and relatively common enough to be deemed acceptable so long as normal and customary behavior goes along with it (ie, unless otherwise engaging in deliberately threatening or menacing actions). In some states, OC of a long gun is lawful and relatively uncommon (at least, by comparison). Yet, here it is in 2013 and we continue to have extreme reactions in many places by other citizens upon the mere sight of an armed citizen, either with sidearms or long guns, but most particularly with long guns.


    Note: Let's please avoid grousing about the appropriateness of OC in this thread. Let's instead strictly focus on recommended methods of carrying openly that support SD and avoid (to the extent possible) irrational, knee-jerk MWAG type calls. There are plenty of other threads that devolve into that sort of thing. Let's keep this one clean, if at all humanly possible.


    Examples of folks carrying, to give you some ideas about the sort of differences in arms, carry position, method, apparent awareness, etc:

    1. rifles & sidearms
    2. sidearm
    3. rifle & sidearm
    4. rifles
    5. sidearm
    6. sidearm
    7. rifle
    8. sidearm
    9. sidearm
    10. sidearm
    11. rifle
    12. rifle
    There were firearms in photo #1???
    tacman605 likes this.
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    1MoreGoodGuy
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