Ladies open carry in Walmart questioned by police

This is a discussion on Ladies open carry in Walmart questioned by police within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I saw this in the news this morning and wondered what advice folks here would have for these ladies. How should they have responded to ...

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Thread: Ladies open carry in Walmart questioned by police

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    Member Array Ransom's Avatar
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    Ladies open carry in Walmart questioned by police

    I saw this in the news this morning and wondered what advice folks here would have for these ladies. How should they have responded to the police? Any mistakes? The article has two videos recorded by the people as they were being questioned.

    Watch What Happens When a Pair of Girls Open-Carry in a Walmart (Hint: It Involves the Police)

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    Senior Member Array DocT65's Avatar
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    While I'm not familiar with Missouri statutes, it appears that this contact occurred due to a call being placed to the police about a "person with a gun".

    Understand that regardless of the law, the officer's beliefs or any other circumstances, all calls of this type are responded to by law enforcement. When everything checks out OK (as it appears to here), everyone goes on their way. Many of these "police vs. open carry" incidents are the direct result of a complaintant calling law enforcement to investigate. The police are simply doing their job in responding to and investigating such calls.

    Right or wrong, like it or not, when you open carry in this day and age it is not unusual for someone to see you and for whatever reason (good intentions or not) call the police. This is one of the major reasons that concealed carry is preferred over open, in addition to the obvious tactical advantage of concealed carry.
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    It was difficult to hear but I did hear the officer say "you can carry open until people start to feel alarmed"? Huh? Apparently the officer doesn't know the law would be my opinion. From the people of walmart pictures all over the net I'd be more alarmed of them before I would somebody with a gun.

    It also seems if I heard right that walmart asked them to leave, so walmart doesn't know the law either OR they need to have a LEGAL sized sign on their doors.


    I only go to walmart if it is something that I will save a lot of money on, otherwise I do my best not to patronize that establishment in the first place because I think they put small local businesses out of business.

    IF I go to wally world I never consider going without my weapon but our laws here are concealed and that is how I personally prefer to carry anyway.



    BTW, love your avatar! Puppy is gonna eat somebody up! lol.
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    For whatever reason, being hassled by police having no probable cause and no laws being broken because of a call by a busy body, do-gooder who most likely is unaware of the legality of open carry or just doesn't agree with it, is harassment and needs to be addressed by the proper training of local police and especially the public. Many times I feel like calling the cops when one of the "women of Walmart" bends over to reach a lower shelf. It's not a sight an old, feeble person like myself should be forced to endure.

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    Senior Member Array DocT65's Avatar
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    Understand that a call placed to 911 about a peson with a gun cannot be dismissed without contact by police at the scene. There is no way for LE to know over the phone if the person is a nut or not, if they can legally carry, if there is a potential situation about to occur or if it's just law abiding Joe buying a gallon of milk while toting his 9mm.

    Education of the police, not really. Education of the public, go for it and good luck with that one. Lots of anti-gun libs out there regardless of what the law says.
    FreeFalling, 357and40 and Brig like this.
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    The first officer might have just as well demanded "Papers Please!". And in case anyone doesnt know, a passport is about the best ID one can have.

    It clearly states on the passport that you are a US Citizen. It has the words "Please let this CITIZEN enter.." So, when that girl gave him a passport, and he asked for more ID, that was nonsense. Heck, he was not entitled to any ID, once a permit is established, assuming that it is a permit only open carry State, like TN. Yet, for those who were carrying, and gave him their permits, as requested, he then demands MORE ID.

    That guy needs some better training.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocT65 View Post
    Understand that a call placed to 911 about a peson with a gun cannot be dismissed without contact by police at the scene. There is no way for LE to know over the phone if the person is a nut or not, if they can legally carry, if there is a potential situation about to occur or if it's just law abiding Joe buying a gallon of milk while toting his 9mm.

    Education of the police, not really. Education of the public, go for it and good luck with that one. Lots of anti-gun libs out there regardless of what the law says.
    But we all also need to appreciate that, with a bit of additional questioning by 911 dispatch at the time of such "emergency" calls, it can generally be determined whether the claimed activity is violent or threatening in nature or whether it's merely someone being seen as carrying.

    If merely the latter, then there is zero cause to send anyone, as it's a perfectly lawful activity and behavior, and it's clearly not an emergency. If wondering whether the behavior is actually menacing in some way, all it takes is viewing the person/people for a brief time to confirm or refute the fearful caller's opinion that visibility=threat.

    Of course, if the claims are of outright violence or menacing behavior, that's something else entirely.

    Point being, "education" of the LE/911 infrastructure can indeed bear good fruit. As can educating the citizenry, but that's a problem 100x more complicated due to how many more people there are, the amount of brainwashing, the lack of a central focal point for reeducating them on the lawfulness of armed citizens. With LE/911, given the command structure, the setting of policy and training standards can quickly cure the knee-jerk lunacy when it comes to dropping everything to come running whenever an armed citizen is sighted doing nothing but going about normal and customary business in a non-threatening manner.
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    While I do think the officer was correct in responding to the call for safety reasons, I believe the officer was wrong in his statement "you can carry open until people start to feel alarmed" Can anyone supply a MO law that states this?

    People are always going to be alarmed about something. I get alarmed when I see women smack their kids and make them cry in a public building, should they be asked to leave also? Will this woman smack others also? I've seen a few that "looked" like they would.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sister View Post
    While I do think the officer was correct in responding to the call for safety reasons, I believe the officer was wrong in his statement "you can carry open until people start to feel alarmed" Can anyone supply a MO law that states this?
    In many states, it's explicitly worded in the "carry" statutes that the actual behavior must be alarming in nature, not merely that some folks get concerned over their unsubstantiated fears of a sighting. But not all states are straightforward about the behavior, with some even having the ludicrous GATTTOTP type laws still on the books (which allow for extreme abuse and twisting of the meaning of the "carry" laws).

    Can't speak to Missouri's specific statutes in this regard, as to visibility versus outright menacing behavior beyond mere carry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    In many states, it's explicitly worded in the "carry" statutes that the actual behavior must be alarming in nature, not merely that some folks get concerned over their unsubstantiated fears of a sighting. But not all states are straightforward about the behavior, with some even having the ludicrous GATTTOTP type laws still on the books (which allow for extreme abuse and twisting of the meaning of the "carry" laws).

    Can't speak to Missouri's specific statutes in this regard, as to visibility versus outright menacing behavior beyond mere carry.

    That makes sense AND leaves the door wide open to the digression of what anybody feels as being alarmed.

    I like having my gun concealed, as stated before it keeps me in many ways from being a target IMO.
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    Member Array Yarg28's Avatar
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    what i really like is how the idiot that created the video acts all "OMG! someones questioning my open carry!" but then acts like police responding with semi auto rifles is alarming. I call that being a hypocrite and accuse them of trying to sensationalize. If that same individual was in some incident inside a mall theyd WANT the police to show up with rifles.

    As much as it bugs me that people call the police over open carry, and as much as it bugs me that the cop was taking ID's from people that werent carrying, I'm more bothered by self righteous aholes that stir the pot like this.

    Also, I thought it was funny that the cop acted like a passport wasnt adequate or was "weird". It trumps all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StormRhydr View Post
    And in case anyone doesnt know, a passport is about the best ID one can have.
    yeah, i thought the same thing and posted it before seeing your comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by StormRhydr View Post
    Heck, he was not entitled to any ID, once a permit is established, assuming that it is a permit only open carry State, like TN.
    I dont agree with that. Permit doesnt prove ID. It only proves permission. Without matching the ID to the permission the permit is useless. What if she stole the permit?

    You get asked for ID because the default in a permit open carry condition is to NOT have permission without the permit. Asking for ID and a permit is not a problem. Asking for ID of people that arent carrying any weapon at all is a problem if they havent done anything to warrant cause.

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    @Sister-- on the part about Wally asking them to leave, that is certainly the store owner's choice. No sign needed.

    As for whether or not they caused alarm, someone was "alarmed" enough to call the police.

    We have had many comments on this forum in the past about disorderly conduct charges for OC in CT; where OC is legal.

    It is what it is.

    Regarding the request for more ID than a passport, that is ignorance. But I can also see the LEO's side of it, even though I
    am 110% against ID laws and papers please. The officer is very used to seeing certain types of ID, the DL or the State issued
    ID. He is not used to seeing passports. He is not skilled at noticing if the passport is a forgery and probably has zero training
    in identifying phony passports. OTOH, he would more readily notice a bogus DL or State issued ID. So while at first look it
    seems absurd to have asked for additional papers, it is not entirely puzzling.

    The OC laws put LEOs in an impossible situation. If they completely ignore people OCing and something goes South, the blame goes straight to the police by the news people and the general public. If the police investigate, then folks here start to complain. It is absolutely no win for the police. They have my sympathy on it.
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    Member Array Yarg28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sister View Post
    It also seems if I heard right that walmart asked them to leave, so walmart doesn't know the law either OR they need to have a LEGAL sized sign on their doors.
    Walmart..or any business for that matter, can ask anyone to leave at any time for any OR no reason whatsoever. They do not have to have a sign posted. If they have a sign, in some states the sign must be respected. Either way, the end result is the same; if a manager asks someone to leave, you get out or risk trespassing charges. There will be no grand moment of Rosa Parks like civil liberty protest in a private place of business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    @Sister-- on the part about Wally asking them to leave, that is certainly the store owner's choice. No sign needed.
    Being that this is a giant chain store and the "owner" Sam Walton is dead, wouldn't this be a corporate decision that is in ALL walmart stores?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing this is not a mom and pop store I'd think that walmart would have to be consistent in their store rules?
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