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Has anyone ever attempted to grab your gun while OCing?

  • No

    Votes: 82 93.2%
  • They looked like they were thinking about it

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • Yes

    Votes: 4 4.5%

Open Carry and Attempted Gun Grabs

9K views 113 replies 39 participants last post by  stylus 
#1 ·
My wife recently took her CCW class, and one of the other participants had been open carrying for a while since he didn't have his permit. By all accounts (hers and the instructor's) the guy was a careless, obnoxious, and unsafe know-it-all. That said, one of the reasons he was finally taking the class was that he claimed to have had several attempts by people to grab his gun while OCing. This is one of the things keeping me from OCing more. So, what's your experience? Have you, OCing, ever had someone attempt to grab your gun, or seen someone that looked like they might try? How did you deal with it if so?
 
#2 ·
Back when it was legal for me to OC, never an incident. I'm sure it's happened somewhere along the way, but probably no more than CC'er whop get robbed and their guns taken.
 
#5 ·
Never.

General demeanor, bearing and awareness can go a long way. So can a decent Level III+ retention holster. And a wardrobe that helps reduce the obviousness.

Either way, it's worth getting training on weapons retention, including retaining one's holstered gun. It's just one of those skills that are worthwhile and should be considered, for anyone who carries (openly or otherwise).
 
#9 ·
I can only recall one report of such a thing in the past few years, that of a fellow forum member whose idiot cousin jokingly attempted a grab at a barbeque and got clocked (broken nose) for his efforts. GG 1, Idiot 0.
 
#13 ·
If I had to guess, I would say both. Idiot if this is his choice of companions. Liar if he thought it would be something to impress people
 
#11 ·
Never had anyone try. There was an incident in Whole Foods in New Orleans when some hobby cop tried to grab a gun. Other than that, nothing I've heard of here
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
i'm new to permit cc but not to open carry around the farm.i don't want to be concerned about whats going on behind me because my personal space gets penetrated when out in public. like the guy standing right on my butt in line at the quickie mart,so therefore I will only cc when in public.
 
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#19 ·
i'm new to permit cc but not to open carry around the farm.i don't want to be concerned about whats going on behind me because my personal space gets penetrated when out in public. like the guy standing right on my a$$ in line at the quickie mart,so therefore I will only cc when in public.
You don't really have "personal space" while in public. that space is everyone else's also.
 
#17 ·
I've never had anyone go after my gun while OCing. OC does require a heightened level of situational awareness to mitigate that factor but the odds are still extremely low that this will be an issue. And the odds that you will deter a crime by the mere act of OCing are pretty good, btw. I have heard many stories of that nature. If you did a poll on whether anyone had deterred a crime by OCing you might get some interesting responses.

Oh, btw having a holster with a thumb break can help, as well.
 
#18 ·
Nope.

I've heard stories of mall cops or idiot teens try this , but its always a friend of a friends cousin type of story.

My guess is this dude either associated with retards that have no business around firearms or was one himself.


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#20 ·
Brought up this poll with my wife. She added that he would put his hand on the grip whenever anyone came close, for fear they'd take it. And he wondered why he got flak open carrying. *facepalm* Guys like that make me think needing a license to carry is maybe not such a bad idea from a public safety standpoint.

Posting from my phone, I blame all typos on Swype.
 
#21 ·
I think that the "No's" have it...:rolleyes:
FL is CC only, but traveling north to see the grandkids in IN, I've never even considered OC as a potential problem because of those around me...in (GA, TN, or KY).
I'm not sure that anyone even looked twice at my Glock.
Once in IN, my son and DIL both OC...no one seems to care up there either.
 
#25 ·
My wife recently took her CCW class, and one of the other participants had been open carrying for a while since he didn't have his permit. By all accounts (hers and the instructor's) the guy was a careless, obnoxious, and unsafe know-it-all.
Had a couple guys like that in my CPL class. They were so over the top I wondered if they were plants, especially since the instructor did nothing to shut them up.
 
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#26 ·
I've OC'd for about 15 years and have never had anyone try and grab my gun from me. My guess is the guy was trying impress the class with his stories.
 
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#28 ·
To be fair, I couldn't choose any selection provided in the poll since I've never open carried a firearm in public, so I've obviously never experienced such a shocking incident. But while waiting in line at a video store a few years ago, someone behind me yanked a pepper spray canister off of my belt, which really angered me until I realized the culprit was an overly curious little boy who immediately received a stern lecture from his embarrassed father for committing such an inappropriate and impulsive act. However, this relatively harmless incident did improve my situational awareness to the point that if I did decide to open carry a firearm, only a very cunning and determined armed criminal would ever be able to disarm me... And don't try to tell me this couldn't happen to the most highly trained LEOs on the street at any moment, because we are all only flesh and blood humans, are we not?
 
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#31 ·
I have seen a lot of people OC and the first thing that pops into my mind is how easy it would be to disarm them from behind. We tend to go into condition white when we are very interested in something in the store. Or our wife and kids are wanting us to look at everything. My son is ten years old and I have raised him to shoot and trained him with gun safety since he could understand. When we see people OC in a store we usually watch and follow for a minute or two. I would look at him and ask what was wrong with the way he was carrying and he would tell me anybody could take it away from him from behind.In these cases they were carrying in a non retention holster and he was right I could have very very easily disarmed them. I just don't understand why OC is so popular? I can draw almost (we are only talking about 1/2 a second slower from concealed) as fast as you from OC. And if you go to a level 3 holster I bet I can out draw you from concealment. To me I want nobody but me to know that I am carrying a weapon knives included.
 
#32 ·
I have seen a lot of people OC and the first thing that pops into my mind is how easy it would be to disarm them from behind. We tend to go into condition white when we are very interested in something in the store. Or our wife and kids are wanted to look at everything. My son is ten years old and I have raised him to shoot and trained him with gun safety since he could understand. When we see people OC in a store we usually watch and follow for a minute or two. I would look at him and ask what was wrong with the way he was carrying and he would tell me anybody could take it away from him from behind.In these cases they were carrying in a non retention holster and he was right I could have very very easily disarmed them. I just don't understand why OC is so popular? I can draw almost (we are only talking about 1/2 a second slower from concealed) as fast as you. And if you go to a level 3 holster I bet I can out draw you from concealment. To me I want nobody but me to know that I am carrying a weapon knives included.
You raise an interesting point. There was another thread here about what holsters people use for OC and it was pretty much unanimously Level 2 or higher. I don't want to add a step I'm not used to by using such a holster. Now, I had a discussion about this with my wife and had her try to yank my unloaded gun out of my canted Galco Concealable OWB holster, and it's really not that easy to do unless you're at the right angle. Sure, some specops ninja could do it, but they'd probably have the drop on me anyway six ways from Sunday. It's just not an easy angle to get if you're not the person wearing the holster. However, the last thing I want to do is do the occasional OC and the find that my gun won't come out because I forgot to break the snap or push the ALS lever or whatever.

Back to your story, was this a straight-drop kydex holster, or what? I don't think it's as easy to disarm someone with a close-fitting, snug, canted holster as you think.
 
#33 ·
First thing is to distract or just pop the person that is OC in the back of the head with some I find handy in the store. If I'm concealed I'm less likely to be picked for a gun grab. And when you are lying on the floor out cold it does not matter if it is leather or kydex canted or not. Canted is a slower draw and harder to conceal. Next time you see someone OC just follow them for just a minute or two and think about it yourself.
 
#35 ·
Level 2 holsters are very easy to get used to because you trigger finger is straight and is on the button on a BlackHawk. Safariland is deactivated with the thumb. Level 3 is just push strap with hand and deactivate with your thumb. If I ever OC it will be with a retention holster. Just haven't found a good enough reason to OC. The way you carry is your pick just thought I would say why I don't. I can understand a woman reason they are built different (Thank God). But there is a whole lot more holsters out there for women than they used to be.
 
#37 ·
"Officer, I was not brandishing, I was ensuring my firearm was secure from being taken by someone of dubious character. Prove otherwise."
 
#41 ·
With my wife, this has been the best tool that I have used. The concept of a sheepdog seems to connect on an emotional level. I prefaced it with a letter to her on my reasons for wanting to carry. I gave her a few days to let it digest and then we had a good long talk.

This has worked with friends that ask why I do all of the training that I do.

OF SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS By Lt.Col. Dave Grossman

Extracted from On Combat, By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, with Loren Christensen...

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million total Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." Or, as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, "We intimidate those who intimidate others."

THE GIFT OF AGGRESSION

Everyone has been given a gift in life. Some people have a gift for science and some have a flair for art. And warriors have been given the gift of aggression. They would no more misuse this gift than a doctor would misuse his healing arts, but they yearn for the opportunity to use their gift to help others. These people, the ones who have been blessed with the gift of aggression and a love for others, are our sheepdogs. These are our warriors.

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog that intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001, when the wolf pounded hard on the door.

Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word "hero"?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

While there is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, he does have one real advantage -- only one. He is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory acts of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

However, when there were cues given by potential victims that indicated they would not go easily, the cons said that they would walk away. If the cons sensed that the target was a "counter-predator," that is, a sheepdog, they would leave him alone unless there was no other choice but to engage.

One police officer told me that he rode a commuter train to work each day. One day, as was his usual, he was standing in the crowded car, dressed in blue jeans, T-shirt and jacket, holding onto a pole and reading a paperback. At one of the stops, two street toughs boarded, shouting and cursing and doing every obnoxious thing possible to intimidate the other riders. The officer continued to read his book, though he kept a watchful eye on the two punks as they strolled along the aisle making comments to female passengers, and banging shoulders with men as they passed.

As they approached the officer, he lowered his novel and made eye contact with them.

"You got a problem, man?" one of the IQ-challenged punks asked. "You think you're tough, or somethin'?" the other asked, obviously offended that this one was not shirking away from them.

"As a matter of fact, I am tough," the officer said, calmly and with a steady gaze.

The two looked at him for a long moment, and then without saying a word, turned and moved back down the aisle to continue their taunting of the other passengers, the sheep.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers--athletes, business people and parents--from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW HARD IT WOULD BE TO LIVE WITH YOURSELF AFTER THAT?

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men...Edmund Burke Reflections on the Revolution in France

Here is the point I'd like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to slaughter you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a police officer he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas, in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down 14 people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work.

They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

The warrior must cleanse denial from his thinking. Coach Bob Lindsey, a renowned law enforcement trainer, says that warriors must practice "when/then" thinking, not "if/when." Instead of saying, "If it happens then I will take action," the warrior says, "When it happens then I will be ready."

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: You didn't bring your gun; you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by fear, helplessness, horror and shame at your moment of truth.

If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7 for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheepdog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-grass sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.
Ah, good old Kennesaw. I went to kindergarten there.

Posting from my phone, I blame all typos on Swype.
 
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