Open carry advocates can put police in tough situations

This is a discussion on Open carry advocates can put police in tough situations within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Interesting article posted locally here in Michigan. It's an editorial from a retired police detective arguing that although open carriers aren't required to show ID ...

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    Member Array Bryan81's Avatar
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    Open carry advocates can put police in tough situations

    Interesting article posted locally here in Michigan. It's an editorial from a retired police detective arguing that although open carriers aren't required to show ID when stopped solely for open carrying, they should just do it anyway to make things easier for everyone. I don't agree, but it's an interesting editorial.

    Rich Kinsey column: Open carry advocates can put police in tough situations | MLive.com
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    Member Array Romans5.8's Avatar
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    In some areas they are though! In response to these, a local municipality now has a city ordinance making it an offense not to show ID to a police officer who asks. Yikes! Sure hope someone challenges that in court.

    I'm not surprised though. I'm not 'anti-cop', by any means. But I'm not surprised a police officer doesn't think there's any harm in giving a police officer more information.

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    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    Maybe cops should ask to see everyones ID just in case they are concealed carrying. Then they would really make the city safer.
    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. Albert Einstein

    "People in Arizona carry guns," said a Chandler police spokesman. "You better be careful about who you are picking on."

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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    The problem is that my ID does not have my intent listed anywhere on it. Yes, an ID might find a felon, but from what I have seen, very few felons would open carry. If I am a deranged gunman, it will not be listed on my ID. So exactly how does showing my ID help you figure out my intent?
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    Senior Member Array Recon1342's Avatar
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    It's morons like this that really torque me off! OC does not constitute RAS, so they aren't allowed to stop you solely for OC... And yet we are supposed to just roll over and provide ID for no reason whatsoever?!?!? How about this- the officer observes that nothing CRIMINAL is occurring, and leaves our law abiding citizen alone?
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    My question is, would his reaction to a call of "MWABP" (Man With A Back Pack) get the same response from him? As proven in Boston a home made bomb is as devastating as a gun, but no one thinks twice about someone with a pack pack.
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    Member Array sovereignaxe's Avatar
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    I fail to see how open carry puts the police at a disadvantage.

    Putting aside the ridiculous notion that someone seeking to do others harm would open carry in the first place, let's assume for some reason that they did. The officer now knows where the subject is and can observe and report their actions. Annoyingly for the rest of us law abiding open carriers, there's nothing in the Constitution or any law that I know of that says an LEO cannot follow a subject for a period of time to report on their future actions after their initial contact if they feel that the subject was suspicious enough to warrant a tail.

    Now compare this to the same person with the same weapons walking down the same street, only this time they had their weapons concealed. The police would never know about it until the shooting started, and wouldn't be able to respond for several minutes. In the previous scenario the officer has already made contact and already deems the subject suspicious, and would be able to respond immediately to the threat.

    But once again, deranged gunmen don't display their firearms until the moment of the attack. This whole debate reeks of a straw man argument.

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    Senior Member Array Chief1297's Avatar
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    "Open carry groups will tell their members that they do not have to identify themselves if the “only reason” for the contact is that they are openly carrying a firearm. Legally they are correct, but are they morally correct?"

    What kind of comment is this??? Are police officers now the morality police? If so, whose morale's are were going to follow? Would the author advocate pulling someone over for "sagging"? Or how about wearing a cross or other symbol of the "suspects" religion he/she didn't agree with? Either the "suspect" is doing something illegal or he/she isn't. If there is no violation or RAS of any kind, I would think the officer would have other pressing things to do. We are not a ?papers please" society and I don't ever want to live in one.
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    Senior Member Array DaGunny's Avatar
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    I found it interesting that he stated that even though it's legal to not show ID, we should do so for moral reasons. When you give him your ID, he will use it to run a check on you. Now, there's an official record of you walking around with a gun (legally). For any future legal proceedings, you've just given the prosecution/plaintiff one more tool to use against you.

    "legality and morality are oft mutually exclusive"
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    Member Array DukeoftheD's Avatar
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    Mr Kinsey speaks off morality.. But im sure he has morally lied to people and morally intimidated people during investigations. He speaks of being backed into a legal corner.... But is it not the citizen who is truly backed into a legal corner when an officer can harass and arrest citizens for not complying with requests, and do so with almost zero liability? Follow the law do not worry about what is easy to do. Follow the law. If no law is being broken anything past casual conversation is inappropriate. If an officer wants to ask for id fine. But if you are shut down by a knowledgable citizen show respect follow the law and move on. Submit! This is the police mentality. When you dont submit the next step is escalate. Its not my mandate to make an officers job easy. Im not giving up my rights to make it easy. I must follow the law as written and so must the police.
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    Member Array Dan.1977P's Avatar
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    Personally, I have nothing to hide so I'm happy to chat with a LEO on whatever subject is on his/her mind as long as its a respectful conversation. Same goes with anyone, honestly. If you start being a jerk, then things change and only necessary information is passed along.
    ... evil will always triumph because good is dumb! - Dark Helmet

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    Ex Member Array fizzle's Avatar
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    One could argue against concealed carriers by applying that same logic. By not knowing who has a gun, police are in danger. Their jobs are made harder by the knowledge that someplace somewhere somebody js hiding a gun!

    Oh wait, the libs and elitists use that argument too.

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    Member Array Bryan81's Avatar
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    I think the problem is that police would ask for ID in this situation in the first place, not that citizens don't comply. His article should have been directed towards police officers to tell them to stop asking for ID all the time when there's no reason to believe a crime has taken place or is about to take place. It's really no different than stopping random cars and asking for ID because the car may have been stolen and the driver's on their way to commit a murder. Openly carrying a firearm isn't a crime and is in no way an indication that a crime is imminent.

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    Senior Member Array Chuck808's Avatar
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    "Just to make things easier" maybe the cop shouldn't ask to see ID just because I'm exercising one of my human rights.

    Nothing more than another thug who thinks truth comes from authority.

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    Member Array PJR202's Avatar
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    I wouldn't care to show id but I don't want to sit there for 5 minutes while the cop does it. Always takes forever when they pull you over for speeding.

    And.. how many shooting incidents actually had a mwag call beforehand or the gunman was spotted carrying g by an officer?


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