Open Carry - What do you think? - Page 3

Open Carry - What do you think?

This is a discussion on Open Carry - What do you think? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by StevePVB OC would likely make me target #1 -- very possibly before I even knew what was happening. Originally Posted by youngda9 ...

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Thread: Open Carry - What do you think?

  1. #31
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevePVB View Post
    OC would likely make me target #1 -- very possibly before I even knew what was happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    I've never heard of a single incidence of this ever happening. This seems to be the emotional response of many against OC. I would venture to guess that a BG seeing a guy with a gun has thwarted many violent acts before they even started. Much more than the armed good guy is "targeted". Criminals don't want resistance or to have to change their game plan. They want to get in and get out as quick as possible, mostly.

    It is an emotional issue in many ways, however.
    So.....your guess with no stats is more likely than his guess with no stats.

    How do you compare two things like that to figure out which is more common when no one knows if either case had never happened?

    It's almost like trying to figure out which one will cause more damage, all the nukes in the world going off at once, or the moon colliding with Earth.

    Getting back to the topic, I think OC is a viable option pending on different sets of circumstances.

    I'm pretty much in the same boat as Chooie, I OC when mandated by law and on other occasions where it just fits better, I've OC'd after church when it was just to dang hot to keep on a suit coat, I've OC'd after teaching as I just came off the range and saw no need to change my carry method at the time. I prefer CC due to other circumstances that go along with my employment such as the "no weapons at work policy" and the fact that I do work in close proximity to PD personnel, they don't like non PD to go walking into dispatch with a firearm.

    Regarding the "movement" I see this on two fronts, I understand the VCDL's actions taken in restaurants regarding the fact that the presance of firearms is not causing chaos and murder like the Gov. of VA claimed would occur if firearms were permitted in restaurants that serve, and further more he was stating that people in NOVA would be asked to leave and it's simply not happening. Hey! Gov. Kaine, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    The other front is a little more different, it seems that some will go out of their way to get into an altercation so they can climb on the OC cross and be martyred for the cause, I'm not talking about Greg Rotz with his incident or Rich and Jahwarriior with the Dickson City incident. I'm talking about those that can't wait to have a run in with the PD so they can "educate them" I'm all for exercising your rights, but if your so into it that you want to get into an altercation just to prove you're right, you've got issues. The same goes for concealed carriers, just in different flavors. Look at all the people that get all Ninja'd out and then ask when can they arrest people?


    My bottom line is this, carry which ever way works for you, just so long as you carry legally.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array DrLewall's Avatar
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    Personally, I am not opposed to OC..I prefer CC tho
    "Brains before Bullets"

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    So.....your guess with no stats is more likely than his guess with no stats.

    How do you compare two things like that to figure out which is more common when no one knows if either case had never happened?

    It's almost like trying to figure out which one will cause more damage, all the nukes in the world going off at once, or the moon colliding with Earth.
    It's simple JD, I'll explain it to you...all it takes is a little thought.

    IF people were being targeted and shot first for open carrying we would have heard A LOT about it. It would be in the headlines, and actual incidences would be talked about on the forums. It would be a statistic, measurable and everything, there would be concrete evidence of this happening.....and yet there isn't. huh...

    Yet we all know that many a robber has changed his plans at a convenience store when seeing a cop walk in(using robbery as an example). The same type of thing can happen when they see someone with a gun, and there shouldn't be any doubt in anyone's mind that it has. No it isn't measurable...but it does happen. Just like a robber would count the 6 shots in his gun and decide not to rob the liquor store that has 10 football players in it...it's force on force...and robbers don't want to encounter force. Check out the estimated statistics on how many times showing a gun stops a violent attack, it's 2.5 million times a year see page 49 of the link, or Google John R. Lott if you're ever bored, better yet read his book Don't you think that a certain % of those attacks are stopped without the person having to draw? We've all heard stories about a CC person placing their hand on their gun to stop an attack(not clearing leather, just letting the BG know they are armed).

    So on one side we have something that we can measure(OC being targeted)...and the occurrences are like ZERO. On the other side we have something we can't completely measure(OC deterring crime)...and we know this occurrence are much greater than zero.

    I'll let you figure out which one wins :)

    Oh, and the moon vs. nukes question. Just calculate the energy of both. Take into account the area of the impact...are nukes scattered or all at a point location(like the moon strike will occur) and you have your answer. That one is simple also.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    QK, I just wanted to give ya a big 'thanks' for posting that. I held the impression that DC was anti-OC for a long time but that laid out the reality pretty well.
    Yup. I was under the impression that the clean-up PITA was what drove the decision. (Remnants of memories from playing clean-up crew on other boards, elsewhere. BTDT.)

    It's nice to know that all should feel comfortable to have a simple discussion on options of carry, though, and that DC.com is all for that ... so long as it remains civil, respectful and intellectual enough.

    Being able to discuss the pros/cons of everything we do is, frankly, the greatest benefit of DC.com, from my viewpoint. Methods of carry, techniques and skills, equipment and gear, risks and rewards. A worthy discussion can have it all, with the goal of improving the safety, security and quality of life of those involved.

    Thanks, QK, Bumper and the rest of the staff.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalCompact View Post
    I think open carry, where legal (should be everywhere) should be accepted as normal.. However it is not, unforunately.
    +1 Especially the accepted as normal -- in my mind meaning the (by then former) accept OC as normal.

    I do both, depending on where I am and the anticipated factor.
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  6. #36
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    Oh, and the moon vx. nukes question ... That one is simple also.
    I'd rather have moonbeams in my hair than be glowing in the dark, but that's just me. Boom!

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Especially the accepted as normal ... I do both, depending on where I am and the anticipated factor.
    I do both, as well, but rarely OC except for in the wilds, on private lands of friends (farms, ranches). The citified folk in Portland would likely call down the cavalry onto the head of any and all who attempted OC anywhere near the city limits. Better to save themselves from themselves, in that regard. Though, were that ever to change, I'd consider it under the appropriate circumstances. Until then, I'm satisfied to keep it under my shirt and retain the element of unknown/surprise in my court. To each his/her own.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #37
    JD
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    IF people were being targeted and shot first for open carrying we would have heard A LOT about it. It would be in the headlines, and actual incidences would be talked about on the forums.
    I am in total agreement that the sight of a gun may deter crime, but it is still an unknown. But how many times have you heard about a gun on someone's hip deterring a crime? As I have not heard about it on the news or a forum somewhere, does that mean it really hasn't happened?

    ...all I was saying is that neither can be PROVEN and there's no sense in arguing over it. It's just like the which is better, Coke or Pepsi, it's all opinion, very little fact.

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    ...all I was saying is that neither can be PROVEN and there's no sense in arguing over it. It's just like the which is better, Coke or Pepsi, it's all opinion, very little fact.
    They are all Cokes, Pepsi is just a kind of Coke. And Coke is better. What kind of Coke? Coke.

    Personally, I wish OC was legal in Texas. I doubt I would, but it would be nice to not have to worry if my shirt is an inch too short, or if exposing the grip or bottom of the holster if I bend or turn a certain way.

    I would also like it to become more mainstream. I do believe if I ever chose to OC, I would definitey carry a concealed backup.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  9. #39
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I am in total agreement that the sight of a gun may deter crime, but it is still an unknown. But how many times have you heard about a gun on someone's hip deterring a crime? As I have not heard about it on the news or a forum somewhere, does that mean it really hasn't happened?

    ...all I was saying is that neither can be PROVEN and there's no sense in arguing over it. It's just like the which is better, Coke or Pepsi, it's all opinion, very little fact.
    re-read what we both just wrote...sounds like you aren't quite getting it.

    You haven't heard about it(a gun on someone's hip deterring a crime) because it isn't measurable...but we all know it happens...seriously.

    You haven't heard of occurrences of OC being targeted becasue it hasn't happened(this we know for sure).

    You say neither can be PROVEN..that is WRONG. OC being targeted can be PROVEN FALSE, because it doesn't happen(haven't heard about incidences, speak up if you have).

    An analogy:
    Johnny is the bully, he may not be strong but he asserts himself as such. Johnny steals Timmy's lunch money every day because Timmy is weak and Johnny knows he won't encounter any resistance. Johnny knows not to pick on Billy because he knows that Billy will fight back.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  10. #40
    JD
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    I'm not faulting your argument, just the logic backing it up, you stated that the targeted first thing is an emotional response so logically, dispel that it CAN'T happen, the fact that it hasn't happened yet, does not mean that it can't happen.

    See where I'm going with this?

    Emotionally, I agree with you. Logically, there isn't enough data to come up with a factual answer.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevePVB View Post
    I know a lot of better informed people will disagree with me, but I believe OC puts me at a disadvantage in a hostile situation. OC would likely make me target #1 -- very possibly before I even knew what was happening.
    No disagreement here on the target #1disadvantage in a hostile situation.

    I'd add that sometimes the sight of a OC (think Virginia's required OC in places with ABC on-premise, here) can create a hostile response.

    OTOH -- I personally have been two situations (and know others in the OC community who report more) where perceived potential threats altered their body language and movement upon seeing that I was armed.

    Was I in real danger? No way to prove it. However, when two rather unpleasant looking young men pass you on the other side of a street (eyeballing you), cross the street, come back toward you, at twenty some feet they split so as to pass on both the street & building sides of you, and one is reached under his shirt -- what do you think? Then when you do the VA Tuck and place you hand on the grip, the one w/o his hand inside his shirt says something to the other, they both turn around and walk away, what do you think? Yes, this was a CC converted to an OC. However, were VA not a OC State, it would have been illegal.

    The other was OC all the way and less dramatic.
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    An analogy:
    Johnny is the bully, he may not be strong but he asserts himself as such. Johnny steals Timmy's lunch money every day because Timmy is weak and Johnny knows he won't encounter any resistance. Johnny knows not to pick on Billy because he knows that Billy will fight back.
    Why Timmy? I'm offended.

    What if we put all the nukes on the Moon and set them off just before it hit the Earth?

    I see the logic in both viewpoints. Youngda's argument seems more persuasive to me.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberland View Post
    I was under the impression that everyone in the VCDL open carries
    I saw the , but I think there are those who do think that.

    In establishments that have ABC on-premise.

    When in the State Legislative Building, lobbying, making a point, etc.

    Ditto, other public forums.

    Ditto, on VT Campus at rallies.

    But for the most part, most that I know CC, most of the time -- as do I.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    I don't OC for many reasons. But I feel that more people see guns being carried by normal Joes, they will get more comfortable and think about their own SD.
    I whole heartedl agree with this. I don't usually OC unless I'm hiking where it's a lot more comfortable with a pack.

    I am very glad that a lot of people OC though. I'm very glad that it's a growing movement. The more people that realize guns don't jump out of holsters and run to playgrounds to attack school children the better.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  15. #45
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    I have a neighbor that hates guns. Whenever I'm going to the range and I see her in her yard, I OC to the range with a big smile on my face the whole way. Otherwise I keep it to myself.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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